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IFH 540: Selling Indie Films with the Regional Cinema Model with Daedalus Howell

Daedalus Howell

Today on the show we have writer/director Daedalus Howell. Daedalus’ film Pill Head is the definition of being a Filmtrepreneur. So much, in fact, I used his film as a case study in my book Rise of the Filmtrepreneur®: How to Turn Your Indie Film into a Moneymaking Business. The method he used was the “regional cinema model.” 

This model is based around developing, producing and distributing a film project targeted to the niche audience of a geographic area. He essentially made an Art House film for his hometown.

Pill Head was entirely a hometown affair — from discounted permits to merchant buy-in and a recent theatrical release through a consortium of local exhibitors (no four-walling!) accompanied by tons of local press.

After an overdose, art student Theda becomes an unwitting specimen in her university’s experimental psych program. There’s a side effect, however — she sees the branching possibilities of reality in an alternate universe. Moreover, an alternate self wards her off the program’s enigmatic researcher Dr. Ashe. Determined to escape, Theda’s salvation lays through the looking glass of quantum quandaries, romance revisited, and the jagged little pill of her own nature.

In this interview, we go deep into the regional cinema model, how he creates multiple revenue streams and how he got that group of local theater owners to four wall his film for free. Enjoy my inspirational conversation with Daedalus Howell.

Right-click here to download the MP3

Alex Ferrari 0:00
I'd like to welcome the show Daedelus Howell man, how are you?

Daedalus Howell 0:14
I'm Grand man, how are you?

Alex Ferrari 0:15
Thank you so much, man. I appreciate you reaching out to me and coming on to the to the podcast and hopefully being you know, dropping some knowledge bombs from your experience because I always look for unique as you know, unique ways of looking at film and you you you hit something I hadn't heard before. Hey, how about using your hometown as a backlot, I'm like, that's a podcast so.

Daedalus Howell 0:38
I had nowhere else to go Alex had nowhere else to go. And I'm with you.

Alex Ferrari 0:43
I appreciate it. But so first of all, man, what made you want to become a filmmaker? Like why did you want to become a carny?

Daedalus Howell 0:52
Well, that's a great question. I, you know, I should back up until you I'm from Petaluma, California, and what you may or may not know about Petaluma, we're north of San Francisco a little bit. This is a movie town. And so we were surrounded by all kinds of film phenomena beginning with like American Graffiti, which was shot here. Lucas, Peggy Sue Got Married was shot here, Coppola and then through the 90s, in many of the Abbotts phenomenon, the leader remake flubber. I mean, it was crazy the amount of like cinematic immersion, just in production that was here for a while. And so growing up in that you get the bug compounding that Lucasfilm was just over the hill in Marin, right. And then you throw in Winona Ryder going to Petaluma high. And this is like Super film consciousness in terms of town. And so a lot of us grew up with, yeah, my cohort and I, with this fantasy that we could do it too. And of course, that was summarily crushed, you know, once we all went to Hollywood and, and, you know, as everyone goes through that process, and so, so I had the bug pretty early. And I had to really figure out how I was going to like, deal with having that in my system. I became a writer pretty early on for local newspapers and that kind of thing. So I was able to kind of build a film adjacent career I could, I could interview film people. And when I did finally go to Los Angeles in like the early 2000s, I was principally, you know, an aspiring screenwriter had some minor breaks, that kind of thing. But you know, I washed out and I was left with the disease, you know, the virus was in me, I wanted to make a film. And it got so bad man. That after, I mean, the infection was really,

Alex Ferrari 2:30
I always refer to the bug or the thing to become a filmmaker. It's like herpes. Like it literally, it once you get it, you've got it for life. It will flare up sometimes, but sometimes it's dormant. But no matter what, it will flare up eventually again, and then you'll and then sometimes it's really bad. You just start like, oh, man, turn into a crack fiend. But go ahead. Yeah.

Daedalus Howell 2:51
Well, that's yeah, that's a great metaphor, because it's really what happened in the gut, it got to the point where it began to forbid myself to like read about, you know, read film books, to look at anything about any film because I didn't want the flare up to come back because I was feeling so negative about myself from never having done it. Yeah. And then I just, I, I got in a situation where I was between jobs in my my partner, girlfriend said, Hey, what do you really want to do now? You know, what, you just kind of wide open and I said, Well, what I really want to do is direct. And she didn't know much about production, anything like that. So she didn't know it was impossible. And so she became a film producer and I became a writer director. And it was just it was just the the drive to do it. That that compelled me but it was really just a you know, after you know you did this with this is Meg 15 years or whatever, you know, you're like, why haven't I done it? There's no really excuse not to apart from manifesting the drive to do so. And so that's what we finally did.

Alex Ferrari 3:49
No, I mean, I mean, I had a I had a horrible experience with a mobster and Hollywood. So that kind of that kind of that kind of stain to me. And so

Daedalus Howell 3:57
I havent read that book Yeah, I'm going to though Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 3:59
It is. It is it definitely I realized it subconsciously stopped me from ever going back into like, why would you go back to the most painful time in your life, and you associate making a movie with the most painful time in your life? So I had an excuse. It was a horrible one, but I had an excuse. Why I didn't do it, but at a certain point, you know, you and I are both have similar vintages. You know, at a certain point, you just go dude, I'm not 20 anymore. Like I can't keep I can't keep doing this.

Daedalus Howell 4:25
Yeah, but the problem is when you bring that filmmaker identity into your consciousness, and you're carrying it that long, and you haven't made that, oh, you know, the feature film, your life is all plot no story, man, you start like you start questioning who you are. And of course, all your friends are like, Dude, are you you're so you're a filmmaker. Really, dude. I mean, where's your movie? And you've got a bunch of shorts on YouTube. Who are you? You know, it's like it's so you just have to do it. You just have to do it. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 4:51
Yeah. And then I hid behind. You know, I did direct like little commercials or music videos and things like that, but it wasn't what I wanted to do and I hid behind post So I was like I was it was kind of like nice. It's adjacent. It's you're kind of you're still a filmmaker, but you're not doing exactly what you want to do. So it's a great experience but your hide you hide in that in that world. So for me, I hid there for god knows about 20 years. Yeah, dealing. Yeah.

Daedalus Howell 5:16
And then you did a podcast and that, you know,you hid behind the podcast,

Alex Ferrari 5:20
And then I hid behind the podcast and behind this. I'll be honest with you, though, I'll be honest with you if it wasn't for the podcast, and if it wasn't for the tribe, I don't think I would have made this is Meg. The reason why I there was two reasons I did it was because one I wanted to prove to the tribe that it can be done. I wanted to prove to myself it could be done. I also wanted to use the tribe as something to keep me to keep me what's that word? Ah, not compatible, but when you're trying to when you're trying to do something and someone tells you like was watching you. I forgot that word. That term I losing my will never find it now. We'll never find it over. I'm sure someone's yelling at it in their car at the moment. But, but, but I did it for that reason. And then also for whatever odd reason, because I was still doing indie film hustle on kind of a side hustle. Still, it wasn't my full time gig yet. I just said, Well, if it doesn't work out, I always have indie film, hustle, I can just go back to that. So it's like my safety blanket, you know, and it's become this kind of like, oh, I I'm good. I'll just go i It made me more brave to just go out there where it might scare other people because you're like putting yourself out there. i It's the opposite. For me. I find it very comforting knowing that I have an I have not only an audience, I have a tribe, I have a community that I could always go back to. And if it doesn't work, doesn't work.

Daedalus Howell 6:41
Yeah, no, that's that's really I think that was one of the smartest moves you clearly one of the smartest moves you've made, you know, and you did I mean, you've definitely galvanized the community. I mean, I'm, you know, how they say like the Velvet Underground had 100 fans, but each one of them started a band, you know, you've got well more than 100 fans, but I there's gonna somebody, some film historian is going to trace back this explosion of independent film, they're gonna be able to blame one man. Oh, they're gonna go oh, sorry. And that would

Alex Ferrari 7:09
That be amazing. You know what I honestly that would be the most wonderful thing ever. Because if I you know, I'm here just to help and I want to I want to I want that and I get these stories like yours and, and other people who've listened to the podcast for a long time. Like I finally made my movie I finally did this thing. But now it's my my job to teach you how to make money with it. But that's why you're here because because you have a unique story behind it. Now tell me about your film pill head? Because great name, great name.

Daedalus Howell 7:33
No, thank you. Yeah. The the general gist is a young art student takes too many pills in wakes up in what's probably a parallel universe. And it's all about finding her way back to her reality, whatever that may be in a sort of redemptive Alice in Wonderland kind of phenomena. However, we went out this sort of fit, you know, typical sci fi style plot, I think, with an arthouse vengence in so I call it an arts floatation film, this thing I just, it's like your first year in film school, you take a survey course, and it's all shot on Luc Godard and Truffaut and I kind of thing I checked every box, I could man, it's black and white. It's it's moody, it's handheld, it's it's an aesthetic kind of like, hat tip to, you know, the French New Wave and all the films I grew up on and that kind of thing. And so it scratched a lot of itches, you know, that, that the flare up was real. And so it's it's a very different kind of movie. And it doesn't really fit into the general indie landscape, which is a stumbling block, in some ways. It's sort of its differentiator in other ways. And, and I was able to play that to my advantage once, once I accepted that this is my aesthetic, there's no way around it, I have to make the film I'm going to make. But I have to make it in a way that it's meaningful to my audience. And I know and I knew pretty much who they were because I'm in local media and that kind of thing. And I knew that I wasn't going to make the kind of film that's going to scale and explode, I was making a regional film, I was making a film that's going to be meaningful to where I'm from, and the people in my community. And that sounds a little backwards because you want your film to be as big as possible often you want to go everywhere. But I'm really hooked on this notion of regional cinema the way that you know, they used to like regional theater, right? There'd be a you know, like a play house and then they'd put on a regular program that kind of thing. I wanted to start something wherein I could credibly create films and know that I had an audience here and do it on a regular basis. And the trick of that of course is making them inexpensively making them profitable and making it for an audience that you know is going to come back in so I knew was gonna make a Petaluma film.

Alex Ferrari 9:43
That's that's that's a really so that's what regional cinema the regional cinema model is for you because that's the first time I've heard that term. And it might be out there in the zeitgeist, but I've never heard of it. Yeah, I've never heard of it. And generally speaking, if I don't hear it, I've never heard of it. It's a weird thing. cuz I'm pretty much inside of this world all the time. So when I heard that I was like, interesting. So now that's the definition of it. And honestly, it's, uh, you know, we're we're taught as filmmakers, especially our generation, but even younger filmmakers, that everything's got to be huge. It's got to be big, it's got to be blockbuster, you've got to make $100 million. And, you know, what film entrepreneur is about is to start bringing it down, bringing it down to niche audiences to bring it down. Now you've created the, the regional aspect of things, which is awesome, because now you are, you're doing basically what I've been preaching, but doing it on a regional standpoint, as opposed to a niche is a niche, but it's a regional niche. Yeah, but it's a regional niche. And if you as a filmmaker have a region that you know, that you can sell movies to, and you can make those movies for a budget, and you can recoup your money and continue to make that's a business, that that's a business and if it goes somewhere else, and it goes International, or sells outside online, somewhere to a bigger audience, fantastic. But your core audience is what is going to sustain your career. That's a really powerful thing. And it also gets out of your gates, that lottery ticket mentality out of the filmmakers head, which is like I need that make something this movie's got to pop for me, I need to go to Hollywood I need to do you don't, you don't, you could keep it small. And as long as you're cool with not living in the Hollywood Hills, and you could just have a lifestyle, buy, you know, buy a house, you know, pay your rent, you know, and enjoy it, like make money, make enough money to sustain you and your family comfortably and make your art well. Hell That's the dream.

Daedalus Howell 11:41
No, that's that's you're totally right. And that's the metrics of success. Can you do it again, it's a supporting you, versus like you're saying a lottery ticket where it's supposed to make your career overnight? That's just not going to happen anymore. You know, unless you're in a dat system, which you know, I would have I would gamble most of most everyone listening is not clustered in Hollywood. Maybe they are but

Alex Ferrari 12:00
But even if you're here, but even if you're here, it's a lottery ticket. There's one guy like, like you and I were raised in the 90s. Like we came up in the film industry, like in the 90s. When independent film like every frickin week, there was Talentino Robert Rodriguez, Kevin Smith, Richard Linklater, Spike Lee, John Singleton, it just kept the Steven Soderbergh every week, there was a new magic lottery ticket being handed out. And

Daedalus Howell 12:25
Sundance was just stamping these guys out, oh, it led us to believe that that's the system, that's what you do you show up, it happens, and it doesn't. And that could be that could really derail your life artistically. Yeah, tell me about it. So yeah, so So I, you know, I had to get really pulled back and figure that out. And once you scale stuff, to, to not just a level where you can actually make it but you know, who's going to watch it, and you know, that you're going to earn it back and in beyond it, it changes your mindset. And there's a lot more freedom in it, you know, especially if you know, your niche, or you know, you're doing now and I totally agree with you regional cinema is a nation that is the region in this case, and I grew, you know, this where I live is, is it's a very special place. And so I knew this fairly dependable and, but there are ways to, to galvanize that and make it happen. And so we set about with our production, and I have to tell you from the like, I was talking earlier about the exploitation factor, this, I knew this is going to be intrinsically not a mass market film, there's just no way about it. But I knew if I did anything other than that, I wouldn't, I wasn't going to be, you know, my artistic integrity and all that BS wasn't gonna be intact. But if you're going to make a film at RH, after not having made a film, you're gonna make your guide and film the way you want to make. Absolutely. So I had to dovetail that into a concept that would work in so I was on a radio program yesterday, and guy pointed out, because hey, you can pedal it's kind of a character and like, that's right, you know, the town, I made the town look, I wouldn't say beautiful, but I gave it a vision that, that this town hasn't seen itself that way before. And and I think that had resonance, you know, and that's something that's talked about a lot. But to kind of like roll back and like how to do this kind of thing. You're going to do a lot of favors, you're going to need a lot of a lot of buy in from like the sort of civic, you know, like bureaucracies that you have to participate in. And you're going to have to become friends with the local press, and you're going to have to have to have a story that's beyond local filmmaker does good, you know, because they've seen that story, right? It's not 1982 Yeah, no one cares. No one cares. Everyone's making a movie right now. You know, they'd rather write about the YouTube kid than they would use so. So I just hunkered down and wanted to tell the story that I told and but I wanted to make the film. I didn't want to do too much guerrilla stuff. I knew that I had to do it legally. by that. I mean, like permits and insurance and all the things and I needed to keep it cheap, lean and fairly invisible because I couldn't afford to close off streets I couldn't afford To I couldn't ask any businesses to stop their business from me, that kind of thing. And so the first thing was, you know, to ensure the production you have to be permitted. And to get that permit, I had to appeal to the city of Petaluma and I go to them. And you know, so in Petaluma, as I mentioned before, has been has seen a lot of film, right. And they're used to big budgets coming in and they make this cities make money on movies through transitory occupancy tax. That means heads and beds, right crew comes in 50 plus people or more, they, those people are put up at hotels, they're eating local restaurants, local services, so films can be a big moneymaker for a city. So when you come in and say, I got this little itty bitty film, please give me a film permit. They're like, Well, okay, sure. We're not going to deny your your freedom of speech. But what's in it for us, especially since in my case, I wanted a discount. And no one thinks that you can negotiate with the bureaucracy, but you totally can, especially the smaller town because the mayor is your neighbor, right? So I wrote a letter to the city manager, they wanted I think, 200 bucks a day, or 225 a day or something like that, you know, that was their deal to 222 25. And I had like a 20 day shoot, right? That's not a significant amount of money to the city. It's like, what, four grand or so like that. But to me, that was like a budget breaker, right? So I wrote a letter to the city manager an email and I said, Hey, here's the deal. I'm a townie. I'm a local, everyone here is local, it's locally cast. It's all this. Here's the general pitch. And the guy wrote back and said, Have it 300 bucks flat rate. In dying, I'm like, isn't that great? You can do that. Right. And so then I went through Fractured Atlas, which is a nonprofit, sort of fiscal sponsor, you know, there, if you can't receive donations yourself, because you're not a nonprofit, they'll they'll vouch for you and receive those funds. And they have an amazing insurance policy policy situation where they worked out, they broke out some deals, so they get discounted insurance for production. So I was able to take that get discounted insurance, which is what the city wants to do want to want you to mess up anything and they weren't insured. So then I had to go most cities will ask you to go to the local merchants is usually like a chamber of commerce or a downtown merchants society or something like that. Because their main concern and this was a concern in Petaluma. And that kind of led to a lot of productions being shut down or not even shut down, like blocked from coming in. Merchants complain about streets being shut down, sidewalk traffic, ending foot traffic gone, no customers, right, even if they're compensated by a studio or whatever. It's never enough. Everyone's grumpy, and it's so disruptive to local business. So when you have a lean little production like ours, you're not going to impact in that way. But you got to tell them that. And that was the weird part. I didn't expect to go to the local business and say, Hey, man, we're gonna be shooting here. Here's my flyer, you have to, you know, announce it that way. That's where I got the first bit of, like, pushback. I was like, Dude, we're just a small. I mean, we were gonna look like tours. There's only five of us, you know, and I camera, and they were so suspicious. And so kind of like, we remember what happened last time, you know, like, you know, I can't remember the film, but I can't I think screen was shot locally, and it ruined the town for a few weeks. Right? So they're pretty chapped about that. And, and I just had to sit down and talk with him. And eventually I surfaced up to the, you know, the the chairperson of the Downtown Association, and I just, I just pled my case, I made it clear to them that we're not gonna shut anything down. This person happened to be a Mason. And I threw that person's influence. Everyone just jumped in. And then the Masons said, Do you need a building to shoot in and like, yeah, and they gave us their building, we shot in a Mason Temple at one point, it was crazy, man, so awesome. It's so it's that it's that local boy makes good angle. But more like, we're doing this together. We're doing this for these reasons. This is how it aligns with what you're trying to do. And we're not going to cost you a thing. And and we're not going to tell you we're going to make your business look good. It's going to be an advertisement for you or anything like that. But we are going to respect you and your business. And we're going to make this as seamless as possible. And we're gonna make it fun for you. You want a cameo? Great, you know, that kind of thing. And so that's

Alex Ferrari 19:08
The power of the cameo. Oh, yes.

Daedalus Howell 19:10
Which is the most Yeah, as everyone else the most BS thing ever because usually it's the first thing gets cut, right?

Alex Ferrari 19:15
That in the associate producer credit

Daedalus Howell 19:20
Got a couple of those.

Alex Ferrari 19:22
So that's when a merchant buy in is is like that's

Daedalus Howell 19:25
That's how I would characterize it is because you're going to need the streets of your small town as if you're shooting the exteriors you're using their storefronts and their backgrounds and that kind of thing. You're going to get location releases from them you know and that kind of stuff and you're going to you want them to to love what you're doing versus being afraid that you're going to cost them money by blocking their customers from getting an intimidating people or people don't want to be on camera. People are afraid of being caught up in something people that want to be in a movie called pill head I get it, you know and so, so you start just literally on the street level going door to door saying This is what we're doing. We're insured, we're playing by all the rules, we're not going to make a mess. And and we're going to, we're going to try to make this a pleasurable process for everyone. And in most of the time they they get into it, we actually we gained more locations than we were a threat of losing because people said, Hey, why don't you shoot my building to? You know, when we had a place that just scheduled wise wasn't gonna work out? Another guy stepped up? Because he's like, Yeah, this sounds like a lot of fun. You guys are, you know, doing a great thing here and that kind of thing. And so that's, that's the place to start on the street level right. Now, what was the what was the budget of the film? Just a smidge under $30,000?

Alex Ferrari 20:38
Okay, so it's a it's an it's a low budget without What am i It's a argue or people will argue micro budget.

Daedalus Howell 20:44
Totally. It's, I don't even think it qualify for the micro budget sag agreement. Be ultra low. I mean, we didn't we paid. That's the thing. Here's the to keep within the budget, we flat rated all the performers. And so everyone got 100 bucks a day, across the board. And that, and that's great. Because that kind of that keeps the spirit of the thing alive. These people are getting paid, or paid actors, that's huge for them. Because we're often in small towns, just starting their careers. And that kind of thing

Alex Ferrari 21:10
That's huge is normally they wouldn't even get paid to be in a feature in a small town. So that's a big plus,

Daedalus Howell 21:16
You have to do it. You know, in hit us, we used a casting director remarkably, we have one up here, I guess, because there's a lot of extras needed when the big films come in. So and so this was the chance for the casting director to break some talent, and it was great for everyone. But we paid everyone which make some accountable. Right? They show up they take it seriously. But at 100 bucks a day where I think the minimum for a SAG agreement 125 I just couldn't make it pencil man. So they didn't get there, you know, sag units, but they don't care.

Alex Ferrari 21:46
Yeah, it's not about the second is how many days did you shoot, by the way

Daedalus Howell 21:50
20 and so here's the thing, man in the middle of our production, the big California fires in Northern California happened. And Petaluma wasn't affected necessarily, but all the surrounding area was and so we were smoked out and we had to shut down and reschedule which was pretty traumatic for a small scale production. And there's a moment of course, where I'm like, we're never going to get this done. This isn't gonna happen. But it's a Karen has a producer was able to like, triangulate, work it out, get all of the merchants to come back on board on different days. You know, the first thing that happens though, when there's a catastrophe like that is that all of the money's all of the donation kind of stuff, like the free catering kind of thing that goes right out the window, because they're diverting that energy and resources to, you know, people who actually need it, you know, fire victims, and that kind of thing completely makes sense. But that that was, that was something we never accounted for, of course, and we had to figure out how we're going to patch all these holes. You know, fortunately, there's a local woman who makes tamales. And so we, we lived on tamales for a week or so. But it was it was a

Alex Ferrari 22:52
Look can I, I want to tell you a quick story. My first film broken was my first short film in 2005. We shot in a like, it's arguably an abandoned hospital. But we like there's four floors that are abandoned, but the rest of the hospital is functional. So the basement was like in it's like from the 40s. In the 50s. There was like ancient stuff. And like there was entire entire, like floors full of props. Basically, they've just been sitting there for four decades. And they're like, go have it go at it. And they eventually originally, were going to be for 500 bucks. And at the end of it, they had such a good time with it. So like, yeah, don't worry about it. So we got the whole place, we got the whole place for free. But the problem was the week before we reshoot, a hurricane hit us because we're in West Palm Beach. So hurricane hit our area. And when we drove up there, like everything was destroyed. A lot of a lot of flooding happened, all of this stuff. So we just incorporated it all into the story. We just said screw it, we'll just we got a roll where we're shooting in five days is happening. But the best part was that FEMA, because it was a hospital set up shop there. And there was hundreds of 1000s of people in line outside while we're trying to shoot a movie, so you gotta roll with the punches sometimes

Daedalus Howell 24:07
Like now you have great production design and a cast of 1000s. Right. Yeah, that's yeah, that's that's the thing that when you're lean, small production, you're you can pivot like that, you know, and so if you do have a natural disaster, you can actually either incorporate it or at least in our case, reschedule and make it work. But so that that was a setback, but But generally speaking, everyone was appreciative and understanding of it and that kind of thing. And and so throughout our post production, we kept everyone abreast of what was happening, that kind of thing. Because once you go into post production, like, it's like, your film disappears. If you're in the cave for once, totally, and no one knows what's happening, or if it's ever going to or if it's ever going to happen. So we've been driven out.

Alex Ferrari 24:48
Well, I was gonna ask you, did you, you obviously understand who your target is, which you're very it's a very it's a niche audience, but it's a very broad, you know, you got a lot of spectrum of people there. So how did you realize that Your movie, which is an art arts floatation film, would would resonate with this audience. Did you do any mark? Did you do any market testing? Did you? Like what was the other than just being shot in that town? Do you think that was enough to gather everybody to come to see your movie?

Daedalus Howell 25:18
That was a start, that was definitely a platform that we could start with. But that's a great question. I knew that given the sort of demographic makeup here, it's a pretty rd town, we're very close to San Francisco. And there's a lot of a lot of people who go back and forth between here in the city. So it's sort of it's a suburb, so it's got a kind of a cosmopolitan edge to it in some ways. In the local movie theaters are multiplexes and and have the usual stuff. And so there's no arthouse films as such. So I always knew that I was going to pursue some kind of local theatrical distribution to kind of like to slake that thirst for that kind of content in this area, right. And so we're blessed that in that we got a couple of like old school venues that used to be old movie theaters that can still do it, that are now music venues and that kind of thing. And so, I always had an eye to like reviving this art house phenomenon in town. And

Alex Ferrari 26:18
So it's a consortium, if you will, a consortium of local local exhibitors.

Daedalus Howell 26:23
So yeah, that's my job. Because it's, you know, every small town has, most small towns have movie theaters, most movie theaters are gonna be owned by somebody, right. And that's often a local business person. Or if it's a chain, you can figure out where the basis of that chain is. And oftentimes the regionalised in, because of the nature of how these businesses put together, they're often they could be like a big AMC theater, but they're actually local franchisees, that kind of thing. And so, or something, I'm not sure for that particular chain, but that's how it often works. And so you can find through just through some internet sleuthing, like who actually owns the theater, right. And it's usually a small company, that kind of thing. Up here, we had, for, you know, a fairly small market, relatively speaking, two separate exhibition companies, right, that between the two of them represented most of the theaters in town. And so I knew that those guys had to be my friends. Right. And I needed to make a case that our film would be worth the risk of, of slotting you know, against the Avengers in this case, you know. And so, what we did was, I knew that a good healthy cast and crew screening would would, I just at this point, I had faith in the film, it was cut, we had a great mix, I knew that I knew that we had something that was really going to make the town lose their shit, right. And so I booked a theater in town called the mystic, which is one of these used one of these old single screen funky, fairly large venue, beautiful place that has turned into a music venue, but they still had the screen. And I approached them. And I said, Well, you know, what's your rate for single night screening, we're near casting crew, and it was like 3000 bucks. And again, you know, deal breaker for me. And so I made the case, hey, this is a local film, it's local talent. It's local, this local that I just really sold them on. This is your opportunity to be a hero to the cast and crew of this film and their friends and family and bring new eyes to this theater who haven't seen it in this capacity in 30 years. Right? I saw so they're like, yeah, it totally, exactly total muscle in and, and they saw the merit in that and they shaved it down to like 1000 bucks, then, which is great. Still, that's 1000 bucks, right? So then, in fact, I have one here. I got myself, a designer, my producer, and we made a program. And then we sold advertising in that program, right, to underwrite the production, or sorry, the the presentation of the cast and crew screening at the theater. So we sold 1000 bucks worth of advertising. Then, of course, he said to be printed, I go to the print shop, and like hey, man, I could go to you know, FedEx Kinkos or whatever. Or we could keep it local, you know, Petaluma printing, and, and we'll throw an ad in there and the guy just shaved it down to like, practically zero. We had to staple them ourselves. But we totally hustled it, and we pass these out, and everyone was happy. And so, you know, they're it, you know, it's like could put him in a special thanks. I did, you know, the credit roll, but the film was pretty locked to that point. But But all in all these advertisers were like, you know, and of course, they got to come the screening because as the thing, man, I wasn't selling any tickets. Right. I told the casting crew, come on down. Bring as many friends as you want the theaters capacity of 300, something like that. And I set it up on Eventbrite. So I can I could register that capacity and I wanted the on Eventbrite. You know, they show you how many tickets are remaining, even though they're free. You want to see that number like, dwindle and get down, down down in the surges, right? And so we packed that place beyond capacity. Right? We had a line out the door, which everyone wants to see, I invited all of the local press to see that line and the local exhibitors. So they come and they they see this film. And of course, you know, it's casting crew, everyone's cheering every time some new face pops on. It's a round of applause, right? It was a really spirited fun up great event, you know, the film's 80 minutes, so you're in and out, right? But we kept the party atmosphere going, it was really great. And in that what happens is the press the exhibitors, they come up to you like, that was really great. That was really exciting. You know, what's your next step? Next step is a bunch of lunches. The next week, we do a bunch of interviews, and we do some deals, right? We negotiate it with the exhibitors, they have, you know, theatrical exhibition, sorry, exhibition is kind of weird, where they, they need to, they kind of lost lead on the film, right. And so I'm films, right. So they're, they're moving popcorn concessions, that kind of thing. For the first few weeks, right, big film comes in, they take a dive on the ticket price, it but they're there. And then the longer the film stays there, the more their percentage of the box office goes up, as you know, and so I knew that I couldn't really tolerate that threshold, you know, because I needed to make the money now at this point. And so because of the nature of of our sort of awareness aware, the where the awareness we'd created in town and all that, and because I knew some press was coming up and all that, I was able to tell the story of getting into it, how we're having local exhibition, it makes the film seem successful, because no one gets distribution, right. And, you know, if unless you go out of 40 Mile Square radius, you don't know the film's not everywhere, right? It's in the movie theater. Right? And so we did a straight up 5050 split. Right, which is a sound for them. It's huge for them. Yeah. And so they got more money up front, on a Thursday night from our little film than they did with endgame, which is playing the theater next door, because there's five guys in there, right? Because yes, I film it been played out a little bit. And so it was a win for them. And it was a win for us. And, and they have all their stuff wired. So like, you know, they, they're taking the tickets and all that and we had to invoice them at the end of the month, they sent the money in the money shows up. And it's great. And so we ran for a couple of weeks in four different cities. That's the thing. That's what you don't want just one theater, you want it, you want to leverage your press, as as wide as you can. And in as many markets as you can, even though it's ostensibly the same community in the same type of audience. They live in different places sometimes. And we have enough regional media that I was able to, like, push that. And once you get one story, you can push that story to other places. I got lucky because one of the newspaper chains here has reported that, you know, they're cheap on the reporter. So they get the one guy to write it, but they run it in three different papers, right? Mm hmm. Fine by me. So here, here's an example. You know, here's, there's one clip. Right. You know, and this is, of course, the hardcopy, it has more of a life online, you know, is another clip, right? Same article, same exact article, this one was different. This is a shot from the movie, this is the cover man of a local alternative news weekly. And they, they just jumped on it, man, we made it a story. Because we had 300 People who had a great time talking about how great it was, and then looking for the paper. So then that's how you did it, man, you start small and you keep it focused and you and you knock on the doors that you know will open for you in your town and and you keep the spirit alive with it. And so so this all snowballed to our Amazon released but anyway, that's that's kind of like the

Alex Ferrari 33:46
So how much did you make on this theatrical release? What was the kind of revenue generally speaking,

Daedalus Howell 33:51
We were making about 1000 bucks a week. Right? And so it made a dent in in our, our initial outlay, and I say the thing that all the film was in part, underwritten by Indiegogo, right, not significantly but a few 1000 bucks, we got a private donor, right who came in for a couple grand to begin with. And then midway through I'm like, I need more money and and I so I just asked him again and he was cool enough and kick kick down into the few grand and our post we did ourselves we built our own you know system, you know, out of bits and pieces and use Premiere in this case. We got a real break though in the mix Central Post la down there up up arm did our did our mix through. I did some music videos for these guys back when they're running some label stuff. And my brother is kind of a mid level Rockstar worked with those guys. And so they did the mix for free. I mean, that's that was huge. Wow. Yeah. And so I shouldn't say for free they they

Alex Ferrari 34:49
Deferred points.

Daedalus Howell 34:53
And they're great associate producers. I'm very happy to work with them. And if you ever need good postman that's where it's at. Good I see producer credit. But so we we made a dent in that and then or so that's that's for one theater. So that so we had four theaters, some theaters do better than others in ran multiple nights in in most of them. Let me backtrack a little bit. We didn't have enough money to make the film when we started. But we knew that we could keep making money while we're making the film to keep paying everyone and paying it off. And I

Alex Ferrari 35:27
I think that's a dangerous business plan, sir.

Daedalus Howell 35:30
Well, is it though, because you can either not make your film, you can either wait till you have your whole budget and not make the sum or you can know that you're going to you know, you have your day job, and you're going to sink a little bit of your paycheck,

Alex Ferrari 35:43
As long as you have if you have a revenue stream that you know, it's coming to cover your nut, then yes, yeah, I've seen too many filmmakers start, like we got 10 grand, but we really need 50, we're just gonna start, we don't know where the other 40 are coming from. That's dangerous.

Daedalus Howell 35:58
No, that is dangerous. I don't advise that. But I do advise making a film if you know that you that if you don't have the budget all at once that you're at least going to accumulate the budget, actually accumulate it not pretend you are but actually know you're going to earn that money or acquire that money through production and post mostly in archives so that you actually are still making that film, there's nothing worse than having a you know, a film on your hard drive, and waiting for somebody to write a check, that's not going to happen and you never do it. It's better just to keep moving as best you can, and then keep it as cheap as possible. So we're so this is 30 grand, but this is this is 30 grand over 18 months, that's still a lot of money. But that's a lot of money in in smaller chunks.

Alex Ferrari 36:38
So what was it? What was the total that you actually had to recoup? After everything was done?

Daedalus Howell 36:45
Oh, of our own actual outlay? Yeah. Right.

Alex Ferrari 36:48
And investors are donation? Is it all donations? Or

Daedalus Howell 36:52
It was all it was all donations or Indiegogo kind of stuff.

Alex Ferrari 36:55
So like actual money you had like, what was the what was the the, to make this go into the black?

Daedalus Howell 37:01
To recoup our personal out of pocket expenses, we only needed about eight grand. You know,

Alex Ferrari 37:09
If you can't make eight grand with an independent film, then you really shouldn't be making an independent film.

Daedalus Howell 37:14
Right in and you can do that. And the great thing is, you know, we own it, too, you know, and it's part of that. Yeah, and it's part of this growing library. And now it lives online. And you know, Amazon sends us little statements every you know, and so if well, did I need to send it I check every day. But but there's it's better to have done and do and start building your your intellectual property empire and have something to leverage. And here's the thing with Pierhead. It's not a standalone property, the way I constructed it, it speaks to in an actually features other things that I've done. So there's this character who has a book called Quantum deadline. That's a kind of a MacGuffin in the movie, which is also a book that I wrote that's published in so I'm selling the book, in conjunction with the movie product placement product. Yeah, but it's, but it's not just product placement. It's it's a plot device. It's it's transmedia. You see, it's, it's it, they share the same story world. So the movie and the book are kind of exist in the the Luma verse for lack of a better term. And so that's, that's, that's how I'm kind of thinking this long term. It's like keep building in keep building the world and properties that exist within that world, in own all of it. And so it could be a longer game, but it's a better game to play. I think.

Alex Ferrari 38:34
So then how did you How was your online marketing game? Like? How did you guys you know, you have this audience that you're trying to reach? How did you reach this audience? How did you, you know, reach out to this audience, your regional audience, and then also beyond?

Daedalus Howell 38:50
So what I did first for the regional audience, because we did that cast and crew screening, through Eventbrite, which, you know, it's just a, you know, it's a free ticketing service at the level, we were doing it that allowed me to capture all of their emails. So not only did I have my cast and crew emails, I had all their friends and family at that point. And so, so that was a list of, you know, 300 plus people, which doesn't sound huge, but it is huge. When you want your numbers to spike on your on your first day of releasing, as you say, Hey, everyone, remember that great time we all had last month or a couple months ago. If you missed it in theaters, here's here's the chance to really deep dive into this film. And I hope that the film can endure repeat viewings. And so because it's got a lot of easter eggs and stuff like that in it. And so that's how we did it. We just did a blast, encourage everyone to share it. Of course, we leverage social all that you can triangulate through emails, like you know, where people are on different social platforms, and you can invite them to fan you know, like your fan page and that kind of thing. And so that's how I started and then I started with press releases and just sending them out to places that I thought would cover the film. And I'm still in that process in trying to try to Push the online. But that's a little. So that's a little outside of the regional model. That's a whole different kind of, it's more traditional in that this

Alex Ferrari 40:10
It's another revenue stream. It's a hybrid. It's a hybrid model.

Daedalus Howell 40:13
Yeah. And you have to keep doing that and keep that alive, because it keeps in the consciousness. And so I send out a press release, or some sort of appeal to a reviewer or a blogger. And then it doesn't have to be like, you know, a huge place any, any mention helps, you know, and so that's what I do. And it only takes you know, it's templatized at this point, so it takes a couple of minutes every day, or every, every week in my case. And that's what I'm doing

Alex Ferrari 40:36
Now. And do you did you use? Like, have you built an online community on Facebook at all or on different social media platforms?

Daedalus Howell 40:44
Yeah, so I because I was a local author and all that I was able to use my my own kind of presence, right. And so I'm generally the face of the film, even though there's a wonderful cast and crew. This I got to push it right. And so through my own Facebook, you know, I've got like, only 1500 followers, but they're really great. And they're really responsive. And so they're not like your tribe where they you know, if you ask them to, you know, march in and take bullets for you.

Alex Ferrari 41:08
I don't I don't know, you given way too much credit, sir. Giving me a way too much credit

Daedalus Howell 41:13
My tribe goes, Oh, this guy, this asshole again. All right. But it keeps it keeps it moving. And, and I know it's working. Because I see I see the you know, the hockey stick, you know, in my Amazon results, but I also get really great feedback. For whatever reason, pill head is the kind of film that people if they get into it, want to talk about it and tell me about it, which is really great. And so I've I've met people online and just hey, I watch your film, man. I really dig it. Did you mean this by that? That kind of thing. They're trying to decode some things. The dude I was speaking with yesterday on the radio, kind of nerded out on me. I didn't. He was putting out things that were in my opinion in the film, but I was like, Yeah, dude. SURE that you believe that? Let's go for that. And I don't mean that like in like a cynical way. I just mean, like, you know, you know what it's like people find something that you didn't maybe intend, but that's important to them. And it's important to let them have that.

Alex Ferrari 42:06
Oh, there's no question. I mean, I know Kubrick understood that very well.

Daedalus Howell 42:12
Yeah, he was brilliant. Not even talking about anything, you know,

Alex Ferrari 42:14
Exactly. Just like you guys figure out what I meant. I you know, it's much more interesting. Now, did you at any point, did you consider doing traditional distribution? Did you go down that road at all? Or was this planned from the beginning and like, we're doing this all the way?

Daedalus Howell 42:32
Okay, it was planned from the beginning that we were going to make a cause like, a completely comprehensively unmarketable film. Right. In that was in I mean, it sounds weird. It sounds like a like a rational after the fact. But truly, Alex, my producer, and I were like, we had done some conceptual art installations. We were, we were all about the creative, and which can be healthy thing, but also it's not going to make any money. Right. The idea was to make the film, we wanted to make a bout this place for this place. And that was the audience. So as long as we stood, you know, kept kept to the the principle like this is Petaluma film for Peda lumens. That was going to be enough to take it over the the, you know, the hump, but but there is that little part of you. Of course that goes. It would be cool, though, if this got picked up, and it would be a hell of a lot easier if it did. And, and so early on, I looked at the distributors that were distributing the kind of films in the A, the arthouse films have a peculiar kind of psychedelic nature, like like this one. And, and, you know, comes down to like, there's the big ones like Annapurna, and a 24, that kind of thing. And there's like a little ones like oscilloscope, none of those guys want to talk to me, it's, it's so and and I knew that and I kind of needed to lob that out there to confirm for myself that I'm, I gotta stay on my path, right? And even if they wanted to pick it up, if they I don't think there's the investment for this kind of film. And this film was so regional in its in its scope, that it wouldn't make sense really outside in some ways. However, I found it a little more universal mathematically than then. I'm probably giving a credit for but but no, I, you know, there's there's the, the darkness is always lurking, right. And it's in the seduction of, you know, breaking through somehow, as always there but you gotta stick to your own thing. It's the only, you know,

Alex Ferrari 44:34
And then how about film festivals, you didn't decide to go down to film festival route either.

Daedalus Howell 44:38
I considered it and I remember looking at the Filmfreeway you know, lineup and thinking this one looks good. That one looks good. I did the you know, I took pleasure in submitting to Sundance and giving them my $100 to sit.

Alex Ferrari 44:56
So it's a fantastic donation. Yeah. And that's and

Daedalus Howell 44:59
I knew going in. I had never submitted a film to Sundance, I had no delusion that it was going to get in. But I wanted to have participated in that. Finally, does that make sense?

Alex Ferrari 45:09
It's worse. It's such a strange such a strange Sundance is such a unique Film Festival in the in the scope of the world. I mean, unlike any other film festival anywhere in the world, especially for people in the US, Sundance is it, and we know that it's astronomical to get accepted. We know we have almost a better chance of winning a lottery or a scratch off than we do of getting our film in was last year, it was like 15,800 submissions. and 120 P films got in including shorts. So if you go go on the features, it's even less like the chances of you getting in are so astronomical. But then we all turn it to Jim Carrey in Dumb and Dumber you're saying, but there's still a chance. But you're saying there's a chance. And that little dream is what kind of, you know, look, I fell into it. Like when I made the ego and desire, which was a film about Sundance at Sundance, yeah, at Sundance without Sundance permission, I waited a year to submit to them, because I was like, if I'm ever going to get a chance, this is it. And I wasted a year, you know, I wasted a year of my time, you know, chasing that film festival dream. So I always find it fascinating when film, filmmakers now are just saying, You know what, I don't think the film festival route is for me. And it's not for everything. And it's not what it was in the 90s. Like, you know, like Sundance was stamping them out. They don't do that anymore. There is no festival that does that anymore.

Daedalus Howell 46:42
Right in festival, the festival culture has changed quite a bit to in what's considered a festival where the film is way different. Right? And not just in terms of, you know, production value and that kind of thing. But you know, a lot of the one stars a lot of them want

Alex Ferrari 46:56
They want asses and seats, they want asses and seats, they want press and that's look at start, you need star power. There's two ways you get into a film festival star power so that you can prove that you can fill that that those seats in those showings by your audience, whatever, that if you're a YouTuber who made a film, and you say, hey, look, I got 5 million subscribers. And I'm going to get how many seats do you need? 300 filled? Yeah, that's not a problem. Yeah, that's yeah,

Daedalus Howell 47:23
I didn't have that. And so I knew that I would have to, like, make my breaks. The other thing was, I was I put myself on this timeline, right? I booked the first screening before the film was done. Right? Because I needed the deadline. And I needed to, like really push it. And I know that sounds a little risky. But we have the technology, you know, it just takes the drive to finish. And so he did. I mean, like up all night, you know, that kind of stuff. But it was worth it. And it's exciting, you know, but no, this is not a festival film, man. And that was that was kind of a weird thing to accept, you know, because I, you know, I'd been everyone we've been through these festivals, we've seen what the culture is like, it's fun, but it just has changed. And there's such a delusion of content now. And our little black and white weird art flick is just not the kind of thing that's gonna play.

Alex Ferrari 48:13
It's not and trust me, like I, you know, with ego and desire, I was rejected from all the major festivals. I mean, I got into rain dance, I got a world premiere at Rain Dance, which was huge. That's pretty great. Yes, it was really, I was so blessed about that. But I was rejected by every other one. And I realized I was like, you know, I think other festivals just have a big stick up their butt about promoting Sundance at their festival. Like you don't want to be thinking about another festival while you're at my festival. That's interesting. Yeah. And I was like, Yeah, because anyone who watches the film really enjoys it. It's a filmmaking movie. It's about filmmakers selling a movie at a festival. Like why? Why wouldn't that play? It's a perfect film festival movie. Yet it didn't sell. It's odd man. I've seen I've look. I've been in over 600 festivals throughout my career with all my projects. It's changed. So so much in your

Daedalus Howell 49:05
Yeah, tastes are different to me. Like the people who go to film festivals. It's, it's usually an older demographic now. And there's a lot of baby boomers. They're kind of looking for the thing that speaks to them. You know, no one wants your punk rock or your movie, you know, it's better to project it unless Brad Pitt's in it unless Brad Pitt unless Brad Pitt's in it. And if Brad Pitt's in your punk rock movie, it's not a punk rock movie anymore, man. See, I mean, so.

Alex Ferrari 49:24
Exactly. So you've got

Daedalus Howell 49:27
Brad Pitt he's great but

Alex Ferrari 49:28
But there's there there's that whole thing is well, it's It's remarkable, man. But look it also I wanted to say I saw on your website, you have some merch? Have you been selling that merch? Has it made any money? Have you created any revenue off of it?

Daedalus Howell 49:41
Yeah. And so that that's the thing, I put it all on the front page of D howell.com. And that that's a constant stream. It's really great man. It's not like huge, but it's definitely buying groceries. You know selling Yeah, I'm selling the film. I'm selling the books that are related to the film and on the site. You can you see that I kind of make explaining What I'm doing this is all one world. And these are the different pieces and you can you can dive into the book or you can watch the movie and there's more to come and stay with me and that kind of thing. It's just the beginning. But it's, it's, it's like the foundation, you know, for like a personal content empire, you know, it's like,

Alex Ferrari 50:17
But that's that's where the future is man. That is, that's, I believe, truly believe that's where the future of independent film is going. It's not this one movie that's going to get me to where I want to go, it's like, it's going to be the grind. It's the film after film, building a portfolio, not selling out to distributors, or creating some hybrid distribution deal where you maintain some sort of control over your your film, not for 15 years, but for five or three things that there's so many different ways of going about it. And this is the future, I think that what you're doing is fantastic.

Daedalus Howell 50:51
I think that one of the tricks though, is to keep it coherent in its own universe, because people want you know, we see this with binging on Netflix, and that kind of thing, I find that audiences if they're going to invest in your your thing, your story, they want to, they want to be like rewarded for for that investment. And you got to do that by giving them another story. Just like the other one. I'm not saying the same plot thing. I'm saying like the same world, allow them to dive into something that you keep building out for them, that keeps them in, in interested in that world. I think the as filmmakers, we want to always do something new and novel and all that. But if you can commit to a story world with characters within it that you can explore, I think that's better. I think it's better to corral everything under some kind of some kind of unifying concept. Like, you know, I'll use the obvious example of Star Wars. Star Wars is like a world and all this universe, frankly, and all this stuff is in it, right? And there's no dearth of story material, you can, there's always a new spur someplace to go. I think if I can encourage anyone, if you're if you want to build a foundation, that blossoms into a business, keep it consistent unto itself. And another that can feel like you're locking yourself into something, but if at all possible, because synergies develop, right. And I'm not like selling like, you know, millions of copies of quantum deadlines that I've sold more this year with this movie, because of the relationship between those two projects than I that I have prior to that, you know, and hopefully one feeds the other that kind of thing. And as I roll out new material that speaks that place in the same playground, it'll keep growing exponentially.

Alex Ferrari 52:22
And it's similar to what I've done with my films with like, this is mag, and you know, what this is mag is not specifically a filmmaker movie, but it's a movie about the industry. It's about an actress. Yeah, it's about the industry. But it's also, you know, really, it's part of my ecosystem of indie film, hustle. So I created multiple revenue streams off of it, in addition to just the actual sales of it, and licensing and things like that. But now with ego and desire, which is coming out, as of this recording, it's coming out in in less than a month. Hopefully, that is going to be real product placement. And real interesting, because that is a product that is designed for the tribe like it is designed for a filmmaker, an independent filmmaker, like if, I mean, I wanted if I would see this commercial, I see this trailer, I'll be like, I've got to see that.

Daedalus Howell 53:12
Right, right. No, that's Yeah, totally. That's exactly what I'm talking about. You've you, that's your niche is kind of turning the camera back on the camera, you know, and exploring the nature of independent film, that's a perfect sweet spot for you. It's great in everything dovetails perfectly, right, it's a coherent brand proposition, I think you're onto something

Alex Ferrari 53:30
And that's it. That's what I've been trying to do. And I you know, and shooting for the mob, which is a book about my filmmaking, and then I've got the new book, whereas with films like it, there's a there's, you could see the film entrepreneur aspects of my business, you know, I and you have, to an extent, you've created multiple revenue streams coming in, and you're not getting you're not retiring off of them. I'm not retiring off of anything. You know, it's it's work, it's a hustle, but it's, it's a keeps the roof off over my head. Lights are on family is fed, we go on a vacation here or there. Life is good, you know, you know, and I live in Los Angeles, for God's sakes. So I mean, like, I wish I lived somewhere else that you know, house costs, you know, but I'm here and in this kind of world that I'm building out as a film entrepreneur is something that's able to sustain me and my family and and you're doing you're doing something similar so that's one of the reasons why I want to jump on the show, man it's really great stuff, man.

Daedalus Howell 54:29
Oh, cool. Yeah, there's that threshold I think for me it's about 18 months, maybe two years out where I hope that the revenue from all these endeavors begins to catch up in Eclipse you know the other work I have to do you know, I'm a writer so I write regardless so you know, I write for clients or write for magazines or newspapers, that kind of thing. And but I I feel a tipping points coming and eventually it's gonna you know, and that's, that's, if you can make it like that. That's the best way to make it man where you made it yourself. And we all have help along the way and all that Yeah, we help others along the way, I hope but But ultimately, you built your own kingdom you built your own empire Alex and and I think that everyone should endeavor to do that, because I think that we're gonna be a bunch of micro studios in 5-10 years.

Alex Ferrari 55:12
But that's but that's the go to the 100% we have to be our own businesses, we have to be our own corporations, we have to be our own studios. And I got to that tipping point, probably around two, two and a half years in, is I got to that tipping point where I just said to my wife, I'm like, I don't think I need to do post anymore. I you know, if a directing gig comes along, I like it, I'll take it, you know, but I don't have to do it anymore. And that is most wonderful feeling. For someone who's been hustling for 20 odd years in this business to just wake up every morning and go do what I love to do. It's the dream. It really is the dream. I'm so blessed and humbled by it. And and that's what you're doing on your end with your films, man. So congrats, man. Seriously,

Daedalus Howell 55:55
Thank you appreciate it. Yeah. I have to say, though, the way you do things, I really appreciate the openness and the way that you share how you accomplish these things. That's something I'm trying to engineer figure out a way to incorporate into what I'm doing. So because they're the give back factor is pretty huge. I mean, as we talked earlier, I without listening to indie film, hustle all that and kind of keeping the spirit of film alive in my head. I don't think I would have gotten to this point. And I think that if there's a way that filmmakers filmmakers can bake in some kind of way of acknowledging or helping kind of keep the community growing, all the better. I don't know what that is for me yet. Perhaps I'll figure it out. But

Alex Ferrari 56:40
The as as I don't know who said this, but if I forgot who philosopher said this, but he says, If you want to, if you want to succeed, help someone else succeed, right, and steal from them, and then obviously, then knock them over the head and take no, but but I've discovered by giving is, the greatest strength I have is because I am of service to my community, I give as much as I possibly can. Sometimes I give give too much, I give away 95% of my information for free. And I only charge for about 5% of what I do every day on a daily basis. You know, I could easily there's some podcasts that I do some interviews with some people that I'm like, I could charge 20 bucks for this is amazing information. And I give it away for free. Because I just found and I discovered that when you pay it forward, man, it comes back to you. And now it's addictive for me like I can't not give I cannot be of service. It's part of my DNA now. So wherever I meet someone, right, sure, you know, there's only there's only one of me, so I can't do it as much as I would like. But as much as you can give. And as filmmakers, you have to find that, that thing inside of you, that you want to be of service. And that be of service could be making a regional movie for your community of a film, that's a mark, that's a that's a a need in that in that marketplace. And you're being of service to that community, giving them a light that they haven't seen before. It doesn't have to be grandiose, it could be something very small. But when you discover that being of service aspect, and you should incorporate that in any way shape, or form you can through your work it is it's so much better than the Me me me vibe that I had back in the day when I was coming up when my ego was out of control and all sorts of craziness that I've gone through in my my career. That's why That's why anytime I meet a filmmaker, which I'm sure you've met too, who are just so ridiculous. That's why I may be going desire because I just had to had to make fun. It's so ridiculous. That I say it's all good man, don't I there's nothing I need to say to you. The business will take care of you. Life will take care of you. Yeah, it's and you might have some success here there. But I promise you, the hammers coming. It always comes and I don't care who you are, it always comes. So you will be humbled. If it's not. It's not me to do it. I won't humbly tell you, do you.

Daedalus Howell 59:11
I think that there's a tick in filmmakers, I think filmmakers, especially in the indie realm are intrinsically problem solvers. Right? constantly figuring out how to do something, or fix something or whatever, patch the holes of somewhere. And I think when you see problems in, in, like, the community, like in terms of like accomplishing something or making a film, that kind of thing, you there's an impulse to want to fix it or help somebody like, Dude, you're doing this wrong, man, this is how you do it. And I think maybe that's where it comes from. At first. Were you just like, Oh, I gotta help this guy. He's, you know, he's gonna waste everything here and I don't know, it's it's, it's a fascinating place to be and maybe it's just maybe I'm just getting older, you know? And then

Alex Ferrari 59:51
Don't underestimate the power of age, brother. I'm telling you, man, I mean, I look when I was 20 Oh, oh, I would I would slap my You know, it takes years of shrapnel it takes that that that kind of that rhinoceros skin that you've got to develop because of all the just the bruising and the battles and the and the punches and the, you know, the cuts, and the scarring that you have to go through in this business and I'm not being dramatic, it's the truth. Like we all go through it. And as you get older, you just start figuring things out. And that's what I try to do with this podcast. I try to like, give them a little bit of a shortcut. I still want them to go through their pain, but it's one thing to be sideswiped by an MMA fighter who's sitting next to you. And another thing is if someone says, Dude, there's an MMA fighter right next to you, you will be punched any minute now. There's a huge difference between you're gonna get punched, but understanding it preparing for that budget is a whole other story

Daedalus Howell 1:00:51
Well put. Yeah, good. The MMA metaphor. I love it. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 1:00:54
It's I always call ego is the MMA fighter that sits on your shoulder that that's what ego is because it'll be he'll be quiet. Sometimes you'll be like, quiet down quiet. He's fine. But he's just waiting for that moment, where there's an opening, and there's always that moment, you're like, Hey, maybe I am not that, boom. And that's it. You're out like, Hey, maybe I am really this good. Boom, there you go. You're out. And ego is always there waiting for you. And you've got to kind of flatten it and it takes forever. So I use that analogy all the time that MMA fighters always on my shoulder.

Daedalus Howell 1:01:28
That's good. That's good.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:29
Now I'm gonna ask you a few questions. I asked all of my films or printers, sir. What advice would you give a filmtrepreneur starting a project today?

Daedalus Howell 1:01:37
Really focus on the writing, that's the one thing you can do for free yourself and get right with enough practice and dedication to it. Make sure that script is story worthy and shoot in shooting where they first just, you can't fix, you can't fix bad writing and post you can edit it around some stuff. But even in my own experience, there are scenes where I go eat if I just spent one more day on a draft, I could have cleared up a lot of problems for myself. Just make sure that things written first write it

Alex Ferrari 1:02:06
Fair enough. Now what is the biggest lesson you learned from building your company building what you're trying to do with your film company.

Daedalus Howell 1:02:15
So go in on getting professional advice for setting it up correctly. If you're going to do an LLC, or, or a sole proprietorship, whatever you're gonna do, just make sure you actually set it up as a business and do it legitimately. Sometimes, if you're going to have your business is going to have what they call a fictitious name. And by that it's like again, it's not your own. Yeah, DBA go through the hoops. Just check all the boxes, it's worth it and and it sets you up for success. You don't want to have to like mess with your taxes. You don't want to have to mess with all this stuff. That's just gonna slow you down artistically. Do it right. And if you have to pay a little bit for it, do that.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:52
And get an account.

Daedalus Howell 1:02:54
That's a great point. Accountants, you know, cheap. Total bookkeepers is way cheaper than you think, you know,

Alex Ferrari 1:03:01
A lot cheaper, than you're doing it yourself man. I could tell you that much.

Daedalus Howell 1:03:04
Especially when you mess it up. Yeah, it especially in production. Having a bookkeeper? I didn't didn't have one until ahead. I really wish I did. Because it would have been so much easier just to have it happening every week. Everyone gets paid. Versus do I get my check? It's midnight. I'm you know, like, well, let me get let me get the book out. Yeah, no, just pay the 200 bucks, whatever. It's nothing.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:24
Yeah, it's no, it's it's, it's a good ROI. And an ROTC return on time and return on investment Ah, yes. Yeah. Because, you know, a lot of us, as filmmakers, especially us guys, here at the micro budget level, we always want to save a buck, but you got to be smart on where you save it. Because if you save $5, but if you pay that $5, not $5 will save you an hour or two in work, or time does it makes is your time worth more than $5? Right? Could you be doing something else that could generate more revenue, or help the project farther along? That is such a huge, huge thing.

Daedalus Howell 1:04:03
That's a great point. Let the pros do the pro stuff, you know? Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 1:04:07
Fair enough. Fair enough. Fair enough. Now, what what did you learn from your biggest business failure?

Daedalus Howell 1:04:13
Hmm, well, that wasn't necessarily this project.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:17
No, no, no, no, in this business in general.

Daedalus Howell 1:04:19
Um, there's a lot of people who are often not invested in your success. Shocking. Yes. And it's, it's important to recognize that and get rid of them early. Not that anyone may be intentionally sabotaging you, but they may unconsciously have a grudge and you might be carrying them with you and you want to drop them as soon as you can. We see this in creative stuff. Sometimes, you know,

Alex Ferrari 1:04:48
Some just not all the time just sometimes.

Daedalus Howell 1:04:53
Just sometimes. This guy suck. You know, there's just there are energy vampires, you know that they want to be close to you Because you got the thing and they don't and they're gonna take it from you. Bit by bit drop by drop papercuts death by pet. Yeah, in they may not even know they're doing it, get rid of them. It's okay to get rid of them.

Alex Ferrari 1:05:13
It took me a long time to figure that out a long time to figure that out. Now in your opinion, what is the definition of a filmtrepreneur?

Daedalus Howell 1:05:23
A filmtrepreneur is someone who endeavors to make filmmaking their live their live in livelihood and by pragmatic and judicious execution of the their, their talent in the cinematic space.

Alex Ferrari 1:05:43
Sorry, you're a wordsmith, sir. Obviously,

Daedalus Howell 1:05:45
No that sounds a little put on. That again, I was I was reaching their films I film a filmtrepreneur is is somebody who, who knows that to make films, they have to make films that that sustain them ultimately. And so by by being smart as as, as well as pragmatic, is the way to go.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:08
Now where can people find you your movie and what you're doing?

Daedalus Howell 1:06:12
Yeah, I'm at DHowell. It's Dhowell.com. And if you want to go directly to the business, it's culturedepartment.com culturedept.com. I'm on Facebook at Daedelus Howell don't even bother Dhowell.com. There's links everywhere I swear. And until hits on Amazon, go to Amazon watch pillhead You can see how I did it.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:33
Yeah. Is it on prime? Or is it on just rental? And

Daedalus Howell 1:06:36
It's on prime yeah.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:37
Nice. Fantastic. Are you finding that you're making? You're making good money on prime as opposed to rental and purchase?

Daedalus Howell 1:06:43
That's a great question. I I'm finding it's not quite as juicy. In terms of prime. But I'm prime is kind of a long term play for me, because I'm trying to push it a lot. And it's easy to get people to watch it if they're not paying out of pocket. Sure. Like, it's a little frictionless. And so I'm kind of in a in a marketing push right now. And so I'm sending out links to, you know, bloggers and stuff like that. I want them to be able to click it, watch it, love it, talk about it. So that's kind of where I'm at right now. So yeah, there's a bit of a little bit of decline. But you know, the great thing about prime though, it's like it's opened up in the UK now. So the film's kind of getting a different audience, that kind of thing. less friction, long term play. I'm a little I'm still on the fence about it a little bit to be honest.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:24
But you're but you're huge in Turkey. So that's all really that matters. You can't walk the streets in Turkey, sir. So

Daedalus Howell 1:07:32
I can't anyway, but yeah,

Alex Ferrari 1:07:35
Brother, man, I appreciate you coming on and being so transparent and forthcoming with the tribe, man. So thank you so much for dropping those knowledge bombs, brother.

Daedalus Howell 1:07:44
Oh, thanks for having me. This is a real privilege and pleasure. I really truly appreciate it, man. Thank you. Yeah.

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IFH 539: How to Make an Indie Film Against All Odds with Tzvi Friedman

Tzvi Friedman

As filmmakers we all have challenges to make our films. Today’s guest had to deal with obstacles that most of us would never have to. We have on the show filmmaker Tzvi Friedman and he has on heck of a story to tell.

Tzvi is a writer and director based in NYC. He was born and raised in an ultra-religious community where almost all cinema was contraband. Growing up he secretly watched countless movies under his covers and sneaking off to the cinemas. At 18 he started making films, becoming a social outcast, but that didn’t stop him.

He has since directed multiple short films. At 21 he crowdfunded $10,000 dollars and made his first feature Man.

Tortured by his inability to feel emotional or physical pain, a man finds murder to be his only respite – until he meets a lonely woman whose compassion awakens something inside.

After he finished shooting the film, by some miracle, veteran producer Cary Woods (Swingers, Scream, Godzilla, and Rudy) discovered his film and jumped on as an executive producer to help Tzvi finish the film.

Enjoy my inspirational conversation with Tzvi Friedman.

Right-click here to download the MP3

Alex Ferrari 0:00
I like to welcome the show. It's the Tzvi Friedman, how're you doing?

Tzvi Friedman 0:15
I'm doing good. I'm doing good. How are you Alex?

Alex Ferrari 0:17
I'm doing good brother. I'm doing good, man. Thank you for coming on the show, like we were talking about earlier, before we got on the air is I get, I get hit up almost 20 30 times a day now. Without question by filmmakers wanting to be on the show. And I try to make I try to make as much room as I can. But at a certain point, we can't hear the same story again and again and again. You know, like, you know, I've made my movie for 5000 bucks. That's great. And if it was 1991, I'd probably have you on the show much faster. But your story actually kind of has a very unique, it has a few unique elements to it. So we're going to get into that as well. But can you tell the audience a little bit? Because you were talking earlier. You've you found me. You've been listening to me for a little while. So how did you find me? And and how have I been able to even help you? On your on your path?

Tzvi Friedman 1:04
Yeah, sure. So basically, you know, when I decided to get into filmmaking, I knew right away, I wasn't going to do the college route, the film school route, for various reasons. So you know, YouTube, to me was sort of the, you know, wealth of information. Everything is on YouTube nowadays. And you can also listen to various channels, and one of them was Indie Film Hustle. I mean, I have a lot of friends who listened to you and all your channel, you know, pretty popular among us some, uh, we call the underground filmmakers. So, yeah, so we just listened to it. And I also saw your evolution, which is pretty wild. You know, like, I remember, you were talking to, you know, sort of like mid level producers and directors and now you're talking to Oliver Stone. And you know, it's pretty, pretty crazy. And congratulations to that.

Alex Ferrari 1:53
Thank you know, I've been I've been very, I've been very humbled and blessed to be be speaking to the people I've been speaking to lately. And it's been, it's, it's been humbling to say the least, man. And it's, I'm glad and a lot of my audience have heard just told me that they're like, man, I've seen you when I was there at the beginning, when you were just talking to like, you know, you know, just young filmmakers. And now you're, you're talking to, you know, legends and things. And it's been very, I look, man, if I can get any information out of those guys, and gals, and bring it to the underground filmmaker, to an independent filmmaker who didn't have the opportunity to sit down for an hour to talk to I would I want to, I want to be able to do that. So, but thanks, man, I'm glad. I'm glad I've been of service to you on your journey. And I always find it fascinating how you how people find me, and like and how it you know, because I don't get to talk to people often. You know, listeners I generally, and you see them at a film festival every once in a while. So how did you get started in the business? Man, what made you want to jump into this ridiculous business?

Tzvi Friedman 2:55
Was a good question. I don't know if I made the right choice no I'm kidding. Um, it wasn't really like that. It wasn't really so much of a business. And like most of us, you know, it was, um, you know, I was obsessed with movies from a very young age, I didn't really know that somebody made movies, you know, you don't realize that there's like, somebody orchestrating the, you know, the story. I'm actually I think I wanted to be an actor to tell the truth on way back like that. Like, I think that I wanted to be in the movies. That's all I wanted. From a pretty young age. And then I'm not sure exactly when I realized that there was a director, I think it might have been a mini doc about the making of Lord of the Rings. And I remember seeing Peter Jackson, it was like two in the morning or something. It might have been the hobbit I'm not sure. Anyways, and he's driving to like, pick up the DP or something. And just like the whole vibe, and the whole, you know, they're all joking around. And I think that might have been, you know, when I started to realize that there was this one guy, you know, there's puppeteer, basically. Um, and then I just became obsessed with the concept of the director, you know, and, yeah, yeah. So

Alex Ferrari 4:03
I remember I remember in The Lord of the Rings, Docs, this is when the First Lord of the Rings came out, that he released that same DVD set that just had like seven hours or 10 hours of like, how they made it on each movie. And the one thing I always never forgot is that he had his, he had his crew carry around a lazy boy. And that was his director's chair. Like a recliner, like a full not like a director's chair. He like how to full recliner and they would just carried around from set to set, and he would sit there and he do everything and then he get up. I was like, why hasn't that become a thing? I have no idea.

Tzvi Friedman 4:41
Well that's Peter Jackson though, you know,

Alex Ferrari 4:43
If you're Peter Jackson, and you've already released the first Lord of the Rings, I think you can get away with this stuff. By the way, everyone listening. If you're an independent filmmaker, do not I repeat, do not bring a recliner on set and say it's your director's chair. People will hate you

Tzvi Friedman 5:00
Yeah. Yeah, sorry. No, no, no, just about the director's chair. I remember, you know, my first few short films, I never sat down, you know, just sure the whole time adrenaline rush. I remember seeing Roger Corman, you know, very some interview of his not too long ago, he must have been pretty sure he's still alive, right?

Alex Ferrari 5:21
Yes, he is still alive.

Tzvi Friedman 5:24
And he was saying how, you know, asking, like directors advice, and you think he's gonna talk about lenses and whatever, or whatever it might be. And he says, just make sure to have a chair to sit down. And you know, that was his. That was his advice.

Alex Ferrari 5:38
I spoke to a steady cam, I think that the inventor of the steady cam, and he goes, What's the best piece of advice for anybody who wants to learn a steady game, and he's like, good shoes. Comfortable shoes is the biggest piece of advice. Now, tell me a little bit about your background, before you jumped into filmmaking? Because from what you told me in your email, you know, filmmaking is not really looked nice, very positively by your family. So how did what would that? Because that what are the struggles you had to deal with with that?

Tzvi Friedman 6:12
Yeah, so you know, I'll speak vaguely a little bit, because I don't want to get into much rattled, but I'm sure but basically, I come from a religious community or ultra orthodox community, Jewish community. And I think like a lot of very far right, religious communities. That's a far right, I don't mean politically far out, I mean, religiously, very conservative. They have a weird relationship with movies in general, and with Hollywood business, just the concept of Hollywood, Hollywood is sort of the Boogeyman. For a lot of people, in my community, and on Yeah, it's a, I think, um, a lot of it has to do with, you know, Hollywood sort of was the, the front runner of the, you know, counterculture revolution. And I think a lot of it started there, you know, a lot of, you know, just the way, Hollywood, you know, the sexuality in Hollywood, you know, 60s and on, you know, Rebel Without a Cause all these movies, you know, were seen as a threat to, to religious communities and to my community. So that's part of the part of it is like, so Hollywood's this big, scary thing. And there's a lot of immorality there and things like that. Um, and then, yeah, I think that's, that's really what it is. So in my family really was the same thing. You know, modern movies, I wasn't able to see Star Wars or Pirates of the Caribbean and stuff that's, you know, pretty much tailored for kids even that, you know, because there's a fear that it has traces of, you know, either ideologies that disagree with the religion, you know, postmodern idea, and things like that, or, you know, explicit scenes and, you know, stuff like that. So, um, so that's basically where I come from.

Alex Ferrari 8:03
So alright, so then you you see a little film called Star Wars. What happens after you see Star Wars? By the way, you're not the only one who saw Star Wars and like, James Cameron did that too. So that you're in good company that Star Wars changed your life.

Tzvi Friedman 8:19
Yeah, I hope that was unique, but I guess, not so much. Yeah, no. So So I had a neighbor who was, you know, also religious, but more modern than me. His parents were more chilled, so they let him see a lot of stuff. And he would just rant and rave about Star Wars. And I didn't know anything about it. But I just, I just knew I had to see this thing. He had the toy lightsaber, he had like, video games. So I just, um, yes, I just looked it up one day on my dad's computer. And I saw a new hope in like, parts, I'm pretty sure at one time, if not the whole thing, or part of it was just on YouTube. This is, you know, I don't know, 15 years ago, whatever it is. Um, so I saw the first the first Star Wars and, and, you know, I think I always had my mom would read us, like science fiction and books. So it's not that I you know, I, I knew about these worlds, but only in my head. Sure. And then when I saw Star Wars, the first time I actually saw it on a screen that that in movies, people are able to do this, they're able to, you know, create these crazy fantasies and these worlds and it was as simple as that. It just, you know, it was it was like the Big Bang for me, you know, it was Yeah, and I just became obsessed with Star Wars and playing Star Wars with my brothers and having lightsaber fights and stuff and right so I think the Star Wars obsession really was like the story of the bug that bit me you know,

Alex Ferrari 9:45
Yeah, the as I as I like to call it the beautiful disease, or the beautiful infection that is filmmaking, one because once you get it, you can't get rid of it. No matter how hard no matter how hard you try, or no matter what obstacles are up and to be in your way. It's something you just have to do. Just have to do. So which brings me to your first movie, man. How did you you know living in the in the environment that you were living in not getting much support I'm assuming from your family or community? How did you generate the not only the energy to make it but to find the money for it and all that whole thing? So how did that whole process come along?

Tzvi Friedman 10:24
I didn't know I didn't dumb and think as you can see.

Alex Ferrari 10:28
You look, you look as you look as old as I am. And I'm joking!

Tzvi Friedman 10:35
Oh, yeah, it's so basically trying to get the timeline. Right. So basically, I went to Israel, actually, I went to study in Israel, you know, on the hopes of becoming like a big rabbi or whatever. And it was a very intense thing. It was a good experience. But it just didn't work out for me. A lot of good friends who went there to study. But I was a movie addict, the movie junkie, like, that's how I got through high school. Like, you know, there was a time where I was dorming. And in a very serious religious school where, you know, if they would catch you with watching a movie, you were thrown out. And we just watched movies under our covers, literally, I remember seeing Schindler's List in my dorm room on a tiny phone, you know, for the first time,

Alex Ferrari 11:17
I'm sure, Stephen, I'm sure Stephen exactly how he wants you to watch it.

Tzvi Friedman 11:20
So, so basically, so basically, when I came back, I got a job as an assistant teacher in a school. But it was just a soul crushing job. And, and I just had this, you know, like, buzzing my ear, like this little whisper in my ear. And then eventually, um, and then I had a friend who passed away, sadly, and, and right before he passed away, I was talking to him about I want to be a director, you know, and he came from the similar we grew up together, went to school together. But he, but at the time, he became more open minded and everything. And we both we saw a Goodfellas we saw, like all the classics together, I saw Goodfellows in his grandmother's basement, you know? So, you know, he was very positive about it. And he said, You know, I think you should do this, and then he, and then he literally died a week later. So, yeah, he was, he was an incredible guy would do dinero impressions and all this. So. So that really compelled me, I think, like, I remember being at his funeral and his burial. And I just felt really angry. And I just decided, like, I'm just gonna try to do this, you know. So I basically, um, you know, I had this idea for a short film. Turns out the short film was gonna cost like, $100,000 to make, you know, that's how it goes. And you first start, you write a script, it was like a mixture of Blade Runner and all these different things. And, and I remember, like, I went online, I was looking for a producer, and I found some girl on Upwork I don't remember one of these things. I wanted the, you know, the film sites. And she said, Yeah, well, I'll produce it, you know, so I meet with her, she said, Oh, first we have to make a trailer, you know, like a sizzle reel, or whatever, to raise money through Indiegogo. So basically, we ended up getting $2,000 from this. Basically, I used to work with special needs children. So there was a kid I was taking care of, and his dad was like a big fan of this movie obsession of mine. So he gave me like $2,000 cash on the spot for the trailer. Amazing. So we made this trailer. And it was an utter disaster. I mean, it just didn't work out and we raised like $100 is like my older brother who gave them money you know, like on Indiegogo was pretty embarrassing. So then, you know, it was like back to square one again. I'm like, How in the world is this gonna happen? It just is, you know, the trailer was pretty good, I think but it just didn't fly. It just didn't work out. And then I remember I was watching Vice News did a thing on Christopher Nolan's following they interviewed him about zero budget and I was watching his advice and he basically said just take a camera you know the the thing that they say but to me the thing about him certain filmmakers you could see like you could tell they sort of come from the underground world but here's the guy who made inception and all these things. And then I saw a following and it's this real you know guy yeah, like glued together you know with popsicle sticks or whatever it's a brilliant film brilliant but um, but it just it's It's unbelievable to see that he went from there to there. So I basically he did it advice I took a camera I shot a short film you know, I only money was to the camera and stuff into the makeup artist. And I felt it was okay you know like I put it out there some people liked it. Some people didn't. But um, but that's that's basically how it starts just kept making short films. Then I produced a short film for this thing called the indie film collective. I was an interesting experience. And then we made another short film. And then just over time making all these short films, I picked up a very small following on the internet. I mean, when I say small film, I like maybe 10 15 People, whatever it is, but it was enough that at a certain point, I just decided it's time to make a feature film. And, you know, and I kept trying to make feature films or like trying to get or get it off the ground, but it just never worked, you know, and my older brother, he's a pretty well to do successful business guys completely self made. And he just said, you have to you don't be embarrassed, just have to ask people, you know, and again, you know, where I'm from. People don't really know what that like, there's no such thing as somebody's going to make movies. It's, it's bizarre, you know,

Alex Ferrari 15:32
I know the feeling. I know the feeling.

Tzvi Friedman 15:34
Yeah. It's what the other people do, you know, like, it doesn't it's not a real profession that could ever happen. So I think I was at my friend's engagement party, or, you know, ultra orthodox engagement party, and I just summed up the cards, and I just started asking people upfront, I said, you know, could I have money for my movie? And they're like, You're movie what? You know, and I think I quickly explained why I was like, trembling. Yeah, making a movie, you know, and then Christopher and all I can just try to explain to them, and a lot of the guys there that just very kind people very generous and said, whatever, let the kid go do his high school play or whatever they were doing, you know, we I raised like, $800 to $1,000, literally that day, just from asking people, you know, just basically bullying people to giving me money. And then with that seed money, we I joined forces with a friend of mine, and we basically started raising money online crowdfunding on Indiegogo. And we raised like, $8,000 that way, and I put in another 1000 of my own, and we basically managed to get the budget together. Um, but yeah, but there was no, it wasn't easy. Let's put it that way.

Alex Ferrari 16:38
So so then when you get the movie done, then you're now and you basically got it in the can. But from what you told me, you basically, were kind of kicked out of your house, and you were like, sleeping on the floor on a couch with your sister. You know, we all have struggles as filmmakers, man like there's no question this is you're trying to get your feature. May we all got a bag, we get a bag and you know, sometimes steel. Do whatever you got to do to get the movie done. Yeah, exactly. And, and that's the insanity of being a filmmaker, but, but you have the extra stress of also not having a place to live in at this point. And all that stuff. How did you break through that man? How did you break? Because I've never experienced that. I always was curious.

Tzvi Friedman 17:21
Yeah, yeah. So. So also, throughout the shooting, we shot once a week. So I was shooting once a week. And when I'm shooting, I feel like you know, you feel you, you're on top of the world when you're shooting.

Alex Ferrari 17:30
Oh, yeah, it's a drug, it's a drug. Absolutely.

Tzvi Friedman 17:33
It's a drug your high, you know, and then I would come home and not, you know, my siblings are amazing, you know, my brothers, they're very supportive and stuff, you know, but I don't blame nobody, you know, like, how are they supposed to know what the hell I'm doing? I you know, and it's not just, it's not just a religious thing. A lot of parents aren't, you know, regardless, any, anything in the arts is insane. So I would come home, I come back here, and they'd be like, you know, there was, you know, you're kind of like a rock star when you're directing. And then you come home and it's like, you know, you it's like, coming back to the slums. You know, you're, you're, it's like a descent. So it was really pressing, in a way it was like, swinging between these different worlds. And, yeah, and then. So the shooting itself was, there was a lot of a lot of stress in not just the production, but just the, like this dichotomy or duality that I was dealing with, going from basically sinning, you know, doing the grave sin of right, you know, making movies, which is this again, like, sort of, like, taboo satanic thing, and then and then coming home and you know, whatever, participating in the Sabbath and all this stuff, and then yeah, then we finished we wrapped shooting, it wasn't the most satisfying production, you know, again, it's, it's the first feature film, sure it for a penny. And then I come home and, you know, I'm again, I don't want to tell tell you too much about I'm sure. Basically, it's a combination of, you know, I wasn't I didn't have a proper income. You know, I didn't really I wasn't making money didn't have a real you know, my parents were very worried about me, you know, I didn't have a career path. And then again, it's the movies it's all these things coupled together. And I basically just pissed off enough people and they were like, you know, it sparks flew and I basically was told nicely to leave and I went to my older sister, you know, who was living in Queens and I just I was just sleeping in her husband study on a mattress on the floor. And it wasn't that bad though. They were pretty good to me and all and um, but I was really desperate to get a job you know, it was kind of like the Wake Up Calls like alright, this movie dream probably is not going to work you know, I made this movie wasn't edited at all. We didn't caught it just a bunch of hard drives at this point. It was just hard drive just sitting there my editor Christian who works for complex media who I met a whole different story but he edited all my shorts basically. He put together a trailer for me and a reel because I you know I call I'm like frantically saying I'm doomed. And he was, he's always been like, he's my right hand, man, you know, like, it's not for him, I wouldn't be anywhere. So he was really supportive. He's like, I'll make you a real don't worry about it, he made me reel made me a trailer. And I put it into a resume and I just started applying to film jobs, because I didn't want to go back to being an assistant teacher, whatever it might be. Um, and, and I went to Mandy, my older brother, I was so broke, I didn't have like, $1, you know, filmmaker. So my older brother, he paid for my Mandy subscription, you know, for like, a month. And I'm just applying to like everything in the world, you know, Pa D, should I remove old picture, low budget horror movie and all this stuff. And I applied to maybe 3040 things or whatever it might have been. And then I applied to a director gig like a horror movie director gig. And of course, you know, that would, that would have been great, you know. And then like, a week later, I got a call from some guy, the producer of this horror movie. And he's like, is this three Friedman? I'm like, yeah. And he says, um, you know, I saw your resume or whatever, why don't you come down and let's, let's have a chat, whatever, let's get lunch, whatever it was. And I was like, oh, yeah, I'm gonna get the job. You know, I'm so desperate now, at this time at this point. And I remember it's snowing, freezing cold, I go out there. And like, a second I meet the guy, he's like, you know, I don't think you're the right fit for the job. And I'm like, Oh, great. Another one of these, you know? Yeah, meeting time. Um, and then he says, but um, I saw the trailer for your feature, I saw some of your shorts, and I really like it. And I sent your work to my friend Cary Woods. I have no idea what that is. But again, this guy, this guy, you know, he thinks he assumes I know, you know, like, he doesn't realize like, you know, where I'm coming from, you know, that I've no, you know, connection with the business whatsoever. And he's like, he wants to he really wants to meet you. So when I leave the meeting, I call up my editor, Christian, and I say, Oh, my God, this guy. He said, Cary Woods his whole thing was I looked up, I Googled Cary Woods right after, and I saw his credits. Um,

Alex Ferrari 21:52
He's a legend. He's a legend. Yeah.

Tzvi Friedman 21:54
Yeah. And Christian, my editor. Again, I love him. This is to disparage him, but he just was like, come on. And you know, you because you know, people, he's been in the business much longer than me. And he's in a much more professional, severe. And he's had horror stories. So he was like, you know, I wouldn't just don't get don't get your hopes up.

Alex Ferrari 22:13
Right. I would say the exact same thing if you were talking to me.

Tzvi Friedman 22:16
Yeah. And like, I waited for like, a week, I was like, should I call back this guy and ask him and like, I was waiting with my phone. They're like, you know, and then I get a call from this producer again. And he said, Why don't you come over Friday evening, for dinner with carry, he'll be there, you know? So I go, there I go, I go to this, like penthouse again, like, you know, I didn't grow up poor or anything, but you know, just regular middle class. Sure. Family, five siblings, a, you know, everybody that lives very simply where I come from, and all of a sudden, I'm in this, you know, crazy apartment. And there's Carrie, and he looks like right out of his Wikipedia page. You know, it's a little weird. I was like, I kind of thought, you know, but, um, and, you know, like, we didn't really talk March, you know, I didn't, I didn't try to sell myself or anything. But it was it was weird to be in a place where like, everybody was filmmakers. on a on a slightly high end on a slightly in a much higher level than me all in the business. And who appreciated my work, which is really surreal. For that's a cool experience Yeah, it was, it was also like another type of high, you know, like, I was used to always feeling guilty about my work. And, you know, at one time, I would show it to my work to my parents, but they just didn't understand it. They thought it was bizarre. You know, and, you know, my dad would watch very, my dad has a good taste in movies, but it was more very conventional, very formulaic classics. And here, I'm trying to make like a button. Well, weird, experimental, right? Yeah. And he's like, you know, what's with the hands, or whatever, you know, so getting that or even my religious friends who love movies, but like thing, like, they want to watch like Michael Mann's heat or something. They're not, you know, sure. Are all French movies. Um, so basically, yeah, so that was a really great feeling. And then a few days later, Cary texted me said, Hey, let's get let's get coffee or something. And we got coffee. And you know, we just talked movies, and he has all kinds of crazy Hollywood stories. You know, your hero complex is Robert De Niro. So in Marvel, here's my favorite actor. So we spoke about that he worked with Warner Hertzog on Playboy, just endless stories. And he also was an agent before he was a producer, you know, so he's all kinds of stories about that. And then what I don't remember exactly the timeline, I don't want to distort the facts. But but more or less, he basically called me up one day and he said, Hey, I'll help you. I'm going to try to help you finish your feature film. I'll see if I can get some investors and whatever. Um, and, and yeah, that like my, you know, you can imagine I was like in seventh heaven. Um, and then we got investors. He got me a lawyer. And then he actually connected with this unbelievable film producer Jonathan Gray, who's an indie film producer. or also did a bunch of pretty flannel pajamas and blue capris, and you name it, he did a lot of very critically acclaimed films Dark Knight, not the Dark Knight Dark Knight, which went to Sundance couple years ago. And he basically became a producing partner with carry on this film. And he gave us an office at his studio, gigantic Studios, which was insane. Just like Monster just squatting there. And me and Chris Christian and I, my editor. We just were coming there and I was able to pay Christian finally, and I never paid him in my life. Am a few dollars, you know, that was nice. And yeah, that's a sort of the story in a nutshell. I don't know. I'm just wow, man.

Alex Ferrari 25:40
That's that's that's a pretty remarkable story. Because that was the twist that that also added another layer to this onion, that is your stories, because like, you know, trying to get your movie made all this kind of stuff. But then all of a sudden getting a major producer like Carrie woods on board, who's a legend. He's an indie film Legend. I mean, from swingers to kids, and so many other movies he's made over the years, you know, to get him on board with essentially a first time filmmaker, I was fascinated by how the hell did this happen. I always love these little stories of how people connect and how things fall apart, fall into place. And it's just luck being at the right place, right time. Like, in what I don't want people listening to understand this is that there is no path that you can copy. You know, I wasted a good decade trying to figure out how to copy Kevin Smith pass or Robert Rodriguez's path, or Ed burns path like these, these guys, you can't can't copy their path because their paths are unique to them. So the time frame when that happens, so you place an ad, go for an interview, they happen to watch your short a I have a friend of like there's so many things that were magical,

Tzvi Friedman 26:54
It insane, insane.

Alex Ferrari 26:57
It's luck. It's luck. But if you didn't have all those shorts, if you didn't have a trailer, if you hadn't had a movie, ready in the can, nobody would have it, this wouldn't have happened. So it's it is truly when luck meets preparation. And that's exactly your story. It's It's pretty. It's a pretty magical story. So now, where are you with the movie? You're still finishing it up in post, so you're getting ready to put it out to the festivals.

Tzvi Friedman 27:22
Yeah, so we are we already submitted to a bunch of festivals, but it's still a quote unquote working progress. We're doing the music now. That's where we're at now. So we're picture locked, we're doing the music, literally, like we just started yesterday. And also the color which we're basically finished. Um, and yeah, we're just we're just trying you know, you know, nowadays you have you know, it's not like it used to be now you have literally 10s of 1000s of films, you know, everybody with their $100,000 movie. There's just a lot of competition it's very easy to get lost in the pile. Um, and yeah, it's it's really it's sort of playing a lottery you know that a day.

Alex Ferrari 28:05
Yeah, it's it's pretty in you know, if you've listened to the show, and you've seen the show, you know, I've talked about distribution and how to get your movie up there and stuff. It is very difficult to get an independent film with no you have no stars if I'm a mistake you have no faces are stars in the movie.

Tzvi Friedman 28:20
We have some future stars I'm on my right to say that to be nice. We, particularly the main actor in our movie. On time, he was on the Broadway show, cabaret. Sam Mendez is a production but he's a brilliant actor. Brilliant. His name's John Peterson. A shout out to John Baba he he's really remarkable you know, these series that we've been showing the movie to now like we you know, we're showing it to all sides forever they're all like wow you know so the thing is if Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 28:52
Yeah so but but as far as distribution is concerned, yeah. Yeah, if I walk into distributors room and like, Hey, I got a lot of future starts it's gonna be like, get the hell out of here. But no, but not not lack of talent, but lack of star power means recognizable faces. Right? So without that it is difficult to do it unless you can a kid into a film festival that could be you know, that likes it and gets some awards and maybe get some attention. But you know, it just as a non it's an you haven't asked me for this advice, but this is what I would do. I would use Kerry Woods his name as much as he allows you to use it to open doors for you because that name does carry a lot of weight in the indie film space. And that they're like, wait a minute, if Kerry's executive producing this guy's film, I should maybe watch it because of his track record. So you've got an ace in the hole without question. It's not gonna help you it might help you a little bit in distribution but it will definitely help you in the film festival circuit without Question

Tzvi Friedman 29:55
Yeah, there you know, I got like, I don't know how what I'm allowed to say but like you

Alex Ferrari 29:59
Don't Don't say I don't want to get in trouble don't get in trouble.

Tzvi Friedman 30:02
Exactly. I don't either want to get in trouble but no definitely carry but not again, not just Cary we have, we have a lot of the Cary sort of built an army around the

Alex Ferrari 30:10
Right. So um, it's amazing that he, it's amazing that a producer of his magnitude who's done so many films over the years, still is hunting for that, you know that diamond in the rough. It just trying to grab something and trying to help a filmmaker along and that's another part of the story that I love is that someone like him is not too high up in the mountain. We're all the gods, the filmmaking gods live, like mountain Olympus, you know, where Spielberg and Lucas and all those guys live? That they're able that he's still willing to to do because it doesn't have to mean he's completely doesn't have to do anything. But he wants to because he loved the process so much and wants to help young voices come out. So that's a really, that's a really pretty awesome part of the story. So I'll gotta get Carrie on the show. One day, I want to talk to Carrie.

Tzvi Friedman 31:04
Thank you. I think you do it. Yeah. Yeah, he's, he's just a really, I mean, you know, I don't know why he decided to do this. You'll have to ask him.

Alex Ferrari 31:14
You're like, Man, I don't know why I'm here. I don't know how this happened.

Tzvi Friedman 31:19
Kind of like, you know, the movie being there. Which is actually when it carries favorite movies. Oh, yeah. Oh, I love the colors. Yeah, just like he's just like this, you know, um, I think he's supposed to be on the spectrum, if I'm not mistaken. And he's just, just like, stumbling into you know, power, you know, the powerful people and and all these rooms, and you're just like, whoa, what am I doing here? And I get that all the time. You know, like, I'll be at an like, again, like, once you meet these people, all of a sudden, you're at these events. And also, you're meeting these people who somebody people inspired you to, like, do this thing now. And you're just, it's bizarre, and you're not sure and they ask you like, who are you? And you're like, I'm not sure who I am. But um, you know, security? Yeah. But um, but Buckcherry is a really righteous guy. I think he's a really, he's just a really good person, you know, above all else. He's he really, he's, like, a real cinephile. He really loves, you know, even though he might have produced some really big commercial movies, too. But he, he just loves cinema. And, and I think he just really wants to try, you know, he sees himself sort of maybe again, I shouldn't, you know, you have to ask him, but my read is that he really feels like a guardian of cinema. And, yeah, and that's why I got lucky, you know, I bumped into him, but um, you know, but yeah, that's why he again, he didn't he hasn't just done this for me. I'm not the only but pretty much. Many of the directors he's worked with were all first time directors, you know. And

Alex Ferrari 32:51
Doug Liman Yeah. Doug Liman with swingers and John Favre, and that whole crew, I mean, helping them along, and the list goes on and on. I mean, he's helped so many filmmakers

Tzvi Friedman 33:02
M.Night Shyamalan.

Alex Ferrari 33:04
A couple guys, a couple guys,

Tzvi Friedman 33:05
A second, like legit movie, like, I might did like a low budget, indie that went to a bunch of festivals, but his, his second, you know, like, more studio film or whatever, Carryade that happen. And, yeah, the list goes on forever. But um, you know, yeah, so it's really cool. And also, another cool thing is that Cary's producing a film called Maggie Moore's, which is a Jon Hamm movie right now, you know, in New Mexico. So it's just funny how we're making our little $10,000 movie and stuff and Carrie sending us notes. And then he's, you know, busy with these guys. It's really weird.

Alex Ferrari 33:38
It's and I just, I also, I also wanted to have you on the show, because I want filmmakers out there listening to see that this has happened Still, these kind of little, this lottery ticket moment, there are these are kind of lottery ticket moments. I mean, look, look, you're not making the next Marvel movie yet, or anything like that. But you are definitely on a path that will hopefully build a career for yourself and having a champion help you and we all everyone needs a champion Spielberg to look, you know, every one of the gods, the filmmaking gods that we look up to had a champion. If it wasn't for Steven Soderbergh, Nolan wouldn't have gotten insomnia. And without insomnia, he wouldn't have gotten Batman and the rest of that goes on and on if there's always a champion. So I'm just glad that that, that we could put this kind of story out there for filmmakers to hopefully hold on to and go look, there's a hope you got to just got it. The thing is that you just have to do the work without expectation because that's exactly what you did. You did the you didn't have any expectation of anything happening to you. Other than hopefully this is going to get made and hopefully I'll be able to do another one, let alone teaming up with carriers and becoming Oh. Let me ask you, I want to ask you about what is when you were on set, I always like to ask the question when you were on set, shooting one day a week, which is fascinating, which is awesome. Yeah, it was awesome. What was the toughest day on set, like that day that you felt everything was gonna come crashing down around you? And how did you overcome it?

Tzvi Friedman 35:16
That's almost every day, but many days. I'm like, we just have crazy, crazy stories. I mean, again, not. Not anything new but but fun. You know? So we were operating with like, it was a tiny who, first of all, like, some of our crew pulled out, you know, last shock. Last, Shocking. Shocking. Exactly. So we have to do the scramble, Facebook, all that all that jazz. Went to makeup artists like I don't you ever saw manbites manbites dog,

Alex Ferrari 35:43
Of course. It's amazing, amazing film, everybody listening, watch man bites dog. It's on criterion,

Tzvi Friedman 35:50
They keep killing the sound mixer. The reservoir. So that's basically what it was like, we were going through makeup artists like a revolving door, you know? Because again, we didn't really have money. So that's how it goes. Right? Nobody first you know, very people want to get and it was in the middle of the winter. But the second day, the second the second day, which is the second week, it was going to be one of these 18 hour days, and we're shooting in multiple locations. And we were at the beach, we decided to make it into the film and None None of this footage. And all of a sudden, again, I don't want to I love my crew and everything. But somebody said, Oh, we don't have we didn't have anything, we could have dumped the footage and we didn't have enough memory cards, let's just put it that way. It happens, bro. It happens. You're like one memory card, you know, and so that that was like one of the that was you know, I just started I had a full on panic attack. Um, and whenever we ended up having to drive over again, and laptop and good memory card was crazy. I mean, something as simple as that, that we didn't prepare for obviously, it was a little ridiculous. But still, we had like, I don't know what it was like a 64 gigabyte, you know, like, the whoever was supposed to bring that stuff didn't bring that stuff. That was one of them. And then we had another shoot. Well, also, we were shooting in a lot of places that were given to us as a favor and paying for it. Sure. So one of the places we were shooting at, I just remember being terrified of like things breaking, you know, and of course, we ended up breaking something. And then it was the whole thing was like who's gonna talk to the owner who's gonna make the call. And we'll just read tickets just together with the whole supervisors, just like fear because like, everybody was just like, let the kids do their thing. Let them play a little bit, you know. And then the craziest thing was, we were doing a reshoot of scene, a murder scene. And this is like, this is after the 10 weeks. This is like, this is like a few weeks later, we finally managed to get everybody available. And we're shooting a scene. And it turns out, we didn't realize that when we shot there a few weeks before dislocation was were a homeless man would sleep it was his territory. And he remembered us from the first time and he came he started like cursing us out. And my lawn producers span is from Colombia. So he speaks Spanish. So he understood what the guy was saying. But he didn't want to like tell us what the guy was saying because you don't want to scare us and we wanted to get finally conservative. He's like, I think the guy my break the camera, and I saw one and I turned around there pulls out a knife and he puts it to my AC'S neck. And he's like basically saying, you know, I'm gonna kill you if you don't leave. You know, so the first thing I did was grabbed the camera and Ron, you know, and and the whole crew followed afterwards. I was like,

Alex Ferrari 38:32
What happened to the AC what happened to the AC.

Tzvi Friedman 38:35
He was fine. But he said we you know, we just like walked away slowly like we did you know? And the guy just chased us out of there. He chased us out of the location. We couldn't go back we couldn't get any more coverage. And that was it. That's all we had. I'm afraid to go to that train. Stop now because it's near a train station.

Alex Ferrari 38:52
Wow. Yeah. It's crazy stuff and never ceases to amaze me the stories you hear about productions especially indie. No budget productions. It's there. Man, I've been there. I understand it. I I've been there's too many times to today. I haven't had anyone pull a knife on us. So that's a new one. I haven't had that. But there has been other stories to say the least. Now, I want to ask a few questions. I asked all my guests, man, what do you what advice would you give to that underground filmmaker listening like you've been listening to me? And what advice would you give them to get there, you know, to get into the business to do what they love to do?

Tzvi Friedman 39:32
Yeah, so like you said, like, there's no roadmap. Anybody who tells you there's a roadmap and end of the day I think it's bullshit. I remember I got a PA gig actually like on a big set called the good fight. CBS show. My friend Sergio was my line producer on my film. He got me in there. And I was like, I was trying. That was at one point. That was my thing. Like I just kind of get on a big set and I have no idea how right you don't go on indeed and get on a because it doesn't work that way. So it turns out these have to meet someone who knows Mondo can get you

Alex Ferrari 40:00
Networking, networking networking. Yeah,

Tzvi Friedman 40:02
Yeah. Which to me is kind of it's that's really frustrating to me about the about how the business it's like this very elitist, high barrier entry type thing. So I finally get on I'm gonna stand in PA, I'm given a radio and stuff, you know, and my job is to stand outside of door. I'm like, just like 1000 PhDs and I'm gonna stand outside the door and just tell people to be quiet, right? My job basically is to do nothing, but I got it was good money, but like, I did nothing the whole day. And by the by, by breakfast, I'm just trying to talk, you know, network speak to people find out like, how do you get into this mysterious place? And I remember I met the production designer of the show, and he was covered in paint, like his pants and everything. And I said, Hey, like, how did you get here? How do you and he looks at me with a big smile. He's like, you're here. I was like, Oh, thanks. Wow, great advice. But, but the point is, that there really isn't. And I remember I asked them, you know, how the actors have PA is also, you know, like the treated like royalty that can't touch the ground. So I asked them, the PA to one of the actresses like, you know, about the director, I'm like, How do you know how she got here? And she's like, you just have to do it. You know. So the point is that even when you're in the US the, you know, the inner chamber, the machine, yeah. Yeah. Like, nobody really knows. It's like, I remember seeing an interview with David Lynch. When he was doing Twin Peaks Season Three in like a cafe some woman was interviewing him. And she asked David Lynch, you know, what do you what's your advice to filmmaker, you know, asked to make a living or whatever. And he's like, I don't want to talk to such a filmmaker. You know, he was trying to say that if that's your goal, then, you know, he, you know, it was he's a very he's a purist. You know, he's

Alex Ferrari 41:44
He's an artist. He's a pure artist. Yeah,

Tzvi Friedman 41:46
Yeah, it's pure artist. But But I think it's true. Even if you do want to make a living off filmmaking, you know, you're gonna be in for a lot of heartbreak, probably, again, I'm, I'm in the very beginnings of this, I can't really, you know, give like real sagely advice. But I just think from the little that I've little path that I've traveled is that just make just, you know, make films tried to believe in yourself and on. And, but again, like some people want to I again, I don't want to impose my my thing, because I had my I put it this way, I just did my thing. I wanted to make my kind of film. I made the film, I wanted to make some I got lucky. Some people recognized it, and they appreciated it. And that was that but but who knows, you know, Ridley Scott made his made his first his first feature at 40 years old again, again, he was a big commercial director. You could you could point to that. But there plenty I mean, David Lynch was like, 33 I think what he did a raise your head? And so who knows? You know, there is no, there's no path. Ad. Yeah, there is no path. That's basically the advice that there is not no advice.

Alex Ferrari 42:52
Yeah, it is. Yeah, I get asked all the time. What that is, is like, just do what you love to do. And try it just don't don't bet the house on it. Because this is a very difficult path, digital question. And I've talked to everybody from the biggest guys to, to, like, you know, people just starting out like yourself, and it's always about, you know, how do I get in? And what do I do? I'm like, you just got to do it. And, yeah, you'll meet someone, you'll connect with somebody, maybe someone you met not now, in six years, they'll open a door for you that you didn't know about. It happens, it's happened to me, it happens all the time. It's just it. That's the thing that's so frustrating about being a filmmaker. It's unlike being a doctor or lawyer they have those are direct paths to making a career. You know, an engineer like these are direct paths. Filmmaking is just like, it's like, it's like a musician or like, arts in general, there is no, there are some paths you can take, but like to be a filmmaker to be a director to tell stories like that. It's tough, man. It's tough. But Is it doable? I talk to people every day on the show that it worked out. You know, I was able to make a career out of it as well and, and still love to do what I love to do. It's just about doing it, man. Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?

Tzvi Friedman 44:20
Hmm, I think, um, just as a director, what I found again, like there's no universal because the honest, that's the thing, the arts are so subjective, which is why there's such a diversity of artists in so many different paths in the art world, because it's not a science. It's not a doctor. So, you know, it's not like look for a surgeon. Yeah, like, he'll tell you, you know, don't move the knife left because you'll kill the person. But um, but for an artist is very different. But for me, personally, what I found is that I used to think I remember I used to be a big Ridley Scott guy.

Alex Ferrari 44:53
Oh, I mean, Blade Runner. I mean, Jesus Christ.

Tzvi Friedman 44:56
Yeah, Blade Runner is one of those, you know,

Alex Ferrari 44:59
Top 5 yeah, no, no, no question.

Tzvi Friedman 45:02
No other masterpiece. But anyways, I remember him saying like, you know how, you know, I storyboard everything. And you know, like, really? He's a tough guy. And premeditated, you know, and I remember being terrified, watching his interviews, he said, you know, if you're ninny, then this is not for you, like all the you know, and, and as I used to go into during the short, that's the, he says that it I remember seeing him say that, I remember, I would storyboard everything and just like, try to be like, very calculated, you know, and, and like, basically not let my actors breathe and, you know, be this tyrant on set, I'm going to be like Cameron and Scotland, you know, and again, it obviously it works for some for, for some people, but what I found, at least for the low budget world, is that oddly, ironically, it helps to sort of, like, let things go, like, for me, that's what I found, like, I was the biggest that I went from this feature, but this feature I came in with all these plans, and oh, boy, did I have to throw them away pretty quick, you know? Yeah. I found that, like, the magic for me happens when, when it you know, I'm avoiding the cliche of collaboration, but that's kind of what it is, like, you know, I got lucky my DP and I, we did two short films after the feature, I got like a really good relationship with Him in a really good relation with my editor, and my composer and the main actor, in my film, have a very, almost like a telepathic connection with him, you know, and we're able to sort of vibe with each other. It's kind of like a dance. And we just, you know, you have to leave, I think, for me, it's leaving room to just allow people to breathe, and let's try to let the movie sort of let it take its own form, let it come alive. It's like this organism that, you know, you only could control to a certain extent, and then you just let it live. And in fact, it ends up making the film better. I think, for me, when I allow the chaos, let the chaos take over. The chaos is good. It's not bad. You know? That's, for me. Probably the biggest creative lesson that I learned, you know,

Alex Ferrari 46:56
Fair enough. And three of your favorite films of all time.

Tzvi Friedman 47:01
And the there are none, but I could come up with three like very important films to me. Sure. Um, the 400 blows, I think would be one of my favorite films of all time Francois Truffaut. I would say I'd have to say, Christopher Nolan's Inception

Alex Ferrari 47:24
Mind blowing

Tzvi Friedman 47:25
Yeah, I have to say that one. Um, and I would say Fellini's eight and a half. Again, this is the mood now you know, your top three change, you know,

Alex Ferrari 47:37
Oh, no, that's just the three right now. Yeah, like a band plays on by Fellini,

Tzvi Friedman 47:41
I asked me when I was 10 years old, it would have been Star Wars, Star Wars and Star Wars, you know, so it just changes but right now, as a as like a filmmaker, when you're studying the craft, those are the films that really, to me, are like the most important films to me at inception to me, at least of the modern era of movies that's like to me like the Citizen Kane, my city might what I consider the citizen game for me of modern cinema.

Alex Ferrari 48:04
Well, my friend, I appreciate you coming on and being raw and honest about your story. And I wish you nothing but the best I hope man does very well and in the scene out in the festival circuit. And I hope to have you back when you're doing the next big Marvel movie or something.

Tzvi Friedman 48:23
Yeah, it's been pretty thanks for having me on the show. And it's it I still can't get over it. I'm talking to you is pretty odd listening to this voice, you know, Indie Film Hustle Podcast Talking to you, it's just it's, it's cool. And it's an honor. And it's also like, is this real? But um, okay.

Alex Ferrari 48:43
I appreciate you, brother.

Tzvi Friedman 48:45
Likewise. Yeah. Great to meet you Alex.

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IFH 538: I Made a Short Film Now WTF Do I Do with Clarissa Jacobson

So you made a short film, now WTF do you do? Today guest is filmmaker Clarissa Jacobson and she is the perfect person to guide you through the rough waters of getting your short film out to the world.

Clarissa is the writer, producer and creator of the multi-award-winning comedy/horror short – Lunch Ladies – based on her feature. The film garnered forty-five awards and is distributed all over the world.

Her follow up short – A Very Important Film – also got distribution. Her optioned feature screenplay, Land of Milk and Honey, is in development with Elizabeth Avellan and Gisberg Bermudez.

In addition, Clarissa wrote a book – I Made a Short Film Now WTF Do I Do With It: A Guide to Film Festivals, Promotion, and Surviving the Ride.

I Made A Short Film Now WTF Do I Do With It is jam-packed with hard-earned knowledge, tips, and secrets on how to enter film festivals, promote your movie… and SUCCEED!

I Made A Short Film Now WTF Do I Do With It covers everything from what festivals to submit to, how to maximize your money, secure an international presence, deal with rejection, gain publicity, harness the power of social media, what a sales rep does and much more.

Included are exclusive filmmaker discounts on services/products from the subtitling company, Captionmax, and promo merchandisers, Medias Frankenstein and The Ink Spot.

Get a FREE copy of the audiobook I Made a Short Film Now WTF Do I Do, released by Indie Film Hustle Books.

Enjoy my conversation with Clarissa Jacobson.

Right-click here to download the MP3

Alex Ferrari 0:00
I like to welcome to the show, Clarissa Jacobson. How're you doing Clarissa?

Clarissa Jacobson 0:15
I'm doing great. I'm really happy to be on your show because it's so freakin awesome.

Alex Ferrari 0:20
Thank you so much. Thank you so much. We were talking a little bit off air. And I appreciate all the kind words you said about the show and your you know, that you've been listening to for a while. And you found me through distribution, where a lot of filmmakers end up finding me when they start running into that wall.

Clarissa Jacobson 0:36
Leaving gray area is since it's no fun, and nobody knows anything about and we're all terrified.

Alex Ferrari 0:42
Right Exactly. And then of course, after you listen to me, you're even more scared. Because Because I tell you the truth. I'm like, No, you're never gonna make money here. This is how they're going to screw you. They're don't sign this here. And and

Clarissa Jacobson 0:54
Knowledge is power. Even It's scary.

Alex Ferrari 0:56
I'd rather you I rather you be scared than lose your movie. So but um, but I'm happy to have you on the show. And yeah, you reached out to me about your book that you wrote called, I made a short film. Now, what the eff do I do with it's a guide to film festivals, promotions and surviving the ride? Based on the title alone? I said, Well, I have to have her on the show. I I mean, because I was like, this seems like the kind of gal that I can vibe with on the show. Because it's it's no nonsense.

Clarissa Jacobson 1:29
Yeah, that was my title. And then I just never changed it. And it's super long. So now I just call it my WTF book.

Alex Ferrari 1:37
Exactly, exactly. TF. So, so many. So so many filmmakers do make short films. I mean, I have a long history of making short films and having some success with them early on in my career. But there is so much misinformation about short films, how you what you do with them, can you monetize them? How do you run the festival circuit is you know, where do you go with it? All this kind of stuff. So before we jump into the, into the weeds, how did you get started in the business?

Clarissa Jacobson 2:04
Well, I when I was a little kid, I thought I wouldn't be an actress. So I did the whole acting thing. I went to acting school. You know, I went to Indiana University and majored in theater. And then I went to American musical and dramatic Academy in New York City. And I did that whole thing. But I was always writing. And the thing about acting is you need so many people to to do it. You know, so I had all this pent up pent up artistic energy all the time that it can never use because if you're not in a play, or you're not you just can't use it. And I stumbled on so long story how I met my mentor Joe Bratcher who teaches twin bridges writing so on. But I he offered me a class and I was like, Well, I'm an actress. I don't write, you know, like, I'm an actress. But I took like, yeah, and I took a few. But I was kind of getting that burned out stage where I was feeling like the bitter actress, you know, but I was always trying to do my own projects. And then I started screenwriting with him and I just never looked back. And I had like, you know, that weird come to Jesus moment where I had to like, because I always like want to commit to one thing and really be good at it. And I was like, you know, freaked out going, Oh my God, my whole life is saving actress, I'm leaving that behind. I'm a failure at it. And my friend was like, you know, life is like a tributary, you're just taking another, you know, waterway. And that was like 1415 years ago, and I don't miss acting at all. And I just love screenwriting so much. And then I made a short film for a variety of reasons. And that's when I really realized Holy shit. I'm a filmmaker. Like, that's where I fit like, 100% I fit as a filmmaker. I mean, screenwriting first and foremost, but I, I don't want to just give my screenplays over. I like to be part of the whole process. I just freakin love it. So yeah,

Alex Ferrari 3:49
That's awesome. That's awesome. And yeah, it is, you know, a lot of times you walk into this business wanted to do one thing, and then you find yourself doing something else. And it's, I mean, I walked in wanting to be a director. And that still still was my goal. But I fell in love with editing. Because Oh, I can make a living. And I can learn and I can make connections. I'm like, this seems like a good job. And I I get some carpal tunnel. I work in an air conditioned room. I'm good. I'm good to go enough to be on set all day. As a PA because that's thinks you know, when I first started, I was like, three o'clock in the morning call. What did Oh, I'm getting $75 Well, that's fantastic. And by the way, that was $75 back in 1995. Whoa, that's $75 today $75. So fun money man. That was something like that was some mad money back in the day. But um, so So you so let's discuss your book, how I made short films. I made I made my short films on what the heck do I do? How to we're gonna go over a bunch of stuff. But one thing is a question that we always get people asking me about is branding. Because I've done I've done it a decent job branding my show and branding myself over the years. How do you brand a short and your opinion?

Clarissa Jacobson 5:07
Um, well with my situation I just looked at this the story and what what little thing that I could pull from it that would be that people could latch on to and that was my lunch. So my movies comedy horror about lunch, ladies. So first thing I did is I was like, okay, where does my film take place it takes place in a school. So when I made the website, I don't know where I learned this, I learned somewhere along the line that you, you always do the same type of fonts, you do the same. So I got started doing like, you know, it was going to be the century schoolbook font, it was going to look like at school, it was going to have the same attitude as the film. And when when I talked to other filmmakers, short filmmakers about branding, I say, you know, don't don't like freak out about it. Like, you know, you don't have to be some marketing genius or whatever you have to find like that thing that you can pull from it that other people will react to. So like for me, I my life actually reprehensible. They're, they're like, really, they're the bullied all the time. So you kind of you feel for them, but the reprehensible so like I, I kind of went the opposite. I branded it in a way that like, everything was, if they got in a festival they cheated to get in, everything was so I just found that like little niche kind of thing that I could hang my hat on. And then when I would do all the Instagram posts, the Facebook posts, all the products I took, I find that a lot of people just throw stuff together, I took like a really a lot of time, making sure that everything like fit together matched with the fonts look to get looked good, and that it was consistent across all the social media. And even my blogs, like I mean, if you wrote like over 200 blogs during the course of it, but like if you look at my beginning blogs, there's there you can see how it's helped grows. So like I would say you don't need to be at 100. When you start, you just start somewhere and you you branded in a way that also it's information that you'd want to see. Like you have to like create a look for your film, whether it's comedy or drama, or whether ever when you're creating content, that stuff that you want to look at that you would want to look at. Because I see a lot of times people just want to like announce stuff. So

Alex Ferrari 7:27
So it's basically graphic graphic design 101 is basically like you're thinking about everything you just said is graphic design 101, which most filmmakers don't think about, because they're like, oh, I'll just throw it up there, I'll just take a still and I'll grab whatever font that I find in in Canva, or in Photoshop and my cracked version of Photoshop that I got somewhere on my old Mac, and they just slap it up there. And that's where I always find I think that's really separates. You know, projects is the design of the branding how it looks before anyone even sees the movie. More people will see the website, definitely more people will see the trailer and the poster. And that will tell me like anytime I get sent video of a gets sent pitches for being on the show. I'll look at the trailer. I'll look at the movie poster, right? And the second I look at I'm like, no, they obviously don't know what they're doing purely on the scope of the design. Because design is so powerful of a way to kind of introduce you to your world. And if you haven't done a good job with your posts, your your website, your trailer, chances are, I've never I've never once seen an insanely well done short or insanely well done feature that the poster in the trailer sucked.

Clarissa Jacobson 8:48
Right and, I think it's too like you have to come from such a place of creativity like in that you have to think of the branding as just as creative as the film. And you know, like I fought it, I didn't want to do it. Don't want to do this. Don't want to do that. But you know what, like, I just sucked it up, you got to just suck it up. And you have to find a way to make it joyful. So what I did was I found a way to make it joyful, so and I would send out my postcards because it's about lunch ladies, I would wrap them in in butcher wrap. I would send like the pins in like little wax paper bags with little stickers, you know, like, just what would amuse me, you know, and try to make, make it fun. Because if you're not having fun and you're not being creative with it. It's not going to resonate. So that comes from that authenticity of like what is fun, like what excites me about how to how to do it and so that was kind of like always my thing like if if I was creating something or sending something out what I want to receive this and you know, people would say, you know, nobody, nobody cares are just gonna rip through that paper. I'm like, Yeah, but I know when that the programmer opens that package. They have a little smile on their face. You know? Put a smile on my face.

Alex Ferrari 10:02
Right, exactly. And sorry. So the other question is this branding? This is where a lot of think a lot of filmmakers make mistakes, too. Is there a lot of times they'll brand their film for the mass audience? But you need to understand who your audience is. Is your audience. The public? Or is it Film Festival programmers? Or is it studio execs? Or is it financiers? Like, you've got to really understand your audience? Is that a fair statement?

Clarissa Jacobson 10:29
Yeah, I think so. And I and I, you know, and I just think there's like a big thing to be said, for consistency. And putting yourself out there. I mean, I have a whole chapter on this about the fear of putting yourself out there, because everybody, you know, it's so much easier to shout someone else's work out than your own. And you're afraid that people are going to go, oh, I that person is so egotistical, because all they do is talk about their film. But you know, at fucko you got to talk about what you love. And if you have a passion and an authenticity, and you're putting it out there and spending time, like it takes time to like, make your product look good, like did not just slap together to, you know, stay up a little a little later that night. And like make sure you have the right stuff that you're sending out. You know, like, it takes time in that passion and putting it out there. Like people will respond to it.

Alex Ferrari 11:24
It's you know, that's called hustle. That's called work. And yeah, a lot of filmmakers they, they feel that that once they're done with the short, I'm good, I don't need to do anything else. And that's the I don't want to do the non fun stuff. But

Clarissa Jacobson 11:37
That's what you got to make it fun. That's what I did. I try I made I made I made it. I made it as fun as I could. Right and, and i Nobody thinks that's fun. They can throw like, Oh, you have a talent for it. I'm like, You know what, everybody has a talent for it if you want to do it,

Alex Ferrari 11:49
Right. I personally love the branding. I love the marketing of my projects and things like that, because it's, I just think of it as just an extension of the creative process. Yeah, for me,

Clarissa Jacobson 12:00
That's exactly the way I think of it.

Alex Ferrari 12:01
I mean, you look at you look at Fincher, and he's really in a David Fincher, he's really involved with his marketing, Stanley Kubrick was heavily involved with the marketing from the trailers to the artwork to everything, every aspect of the marketing process of his films, because he saw it as well. So to Fincher that way, and I not that I'm putting myself in the same category as Rick,

Clarissa Jacobson 12:24
Right, you're absolutely right, you have to have that creative. Yeah, I mean, that's the best thing to think about. It is like, it's just an extension of the product, you know. And I think, too, you need to know what you want to do with your short, like, if you you don't want to if you just want to go to film festivals and part of your ass off, and you don't care where your film goes, and you don't need to do all that stuff. But if you have a vision that you want it to be like a proof of concept, or you want people to notice you, then you have to find a way to connect the whole thing together make it part of this. I mean, to me, it is part of the same thing. It's not as fun as making the film. But no, it's part of it.

Alex Ferrari 13:00
And I think the the big benefit that everyone has nowadays and now I'm going to put on my old man hat because back in the day, back in the days in the 90s it was a lot more difficult to put something together online. Oh, yeah, I remember. I mean, yeah, when you still had dial up and like DSL, okay, stop and

Clarissa Jacobson 13:21
Rent a camera to like, do a little video.

Alex Ferrari 13:23
No, no, there was no video. We were 10 years away from YouTube. Okay, that's where we that's where I was. That's how old I am everyone

Clarissa Jacobson 13:32
Like my acting things. I mean, I'm aging myself, but like my acting things, and you had to do like a thing. And I had to like hire somebody to bring a little camera. Oh, yeah, a little tiny tape or

Alex Ferrari 13:41
Mini DV tape and they would have to transfer it to a VHS. Exactly. So but the point I'm making here is that when you when you, you now have the ability to make yourself look much larger and much more established than you might be? Because if you've got good design, and you've got a solid website and you've got a solid trailer, agents, managers, financiers festival festival programmers, they'll look at that and go wait a minute, they must know what they're doing. Because that is the depth honestly, a good design and good branding will set you apart you have so much bad

Clarissa Jacobson 14:27
Even just doing it.

Alex Ferrari 14:29
So that so it so there's different levels, not doing it doing it badly. And doing it really well. Yeah, even doing it bad that like well, at least they got a website they must have done. Right. But if you do it really well and that's from my experience. I mean, I was with my first short film in 2005. I was I got into like, I think three or 400 film festivals with that with a with it was a different time. It was awesome. It was a different world back then. But a lot of times it was about The website we put together which was a flash, it was a flash website. But it was so far beyond anything short film should ever have. plus all the extra stuff I did for and everything. So it looks so much bigger I was getting called by like Oscar winning producers. They're like, what's going on here? Can we can we produce your Oh, that's a whole I'll write another book about that whole story. sure one day about about what happened with the journeys I went through with that project. But it was about the festival, the trailer, the branding, and I did it instinctively. I didn't know any better. I didn't go like I got a graphic this economic. I did it instinctively. But

Clarissa Jacobson 15:37
I was the same. Mine was like such a design. Like I knew exactly what I wanted to do with my film. And I was like, if if this fails, it's going to fail. Because not because I didn't do everything I could to make it succeed. So if it fails, then I can go okay, well, I did everything I could write. So it was such a desire to have it succeed. That I just was like, I had to figure and figure out how to make a website, I figured out like, I didn't know how to use Twitter. I was like, pound what they're like, No, it's hashtag. Like, I didn't have a Facebook page. I was not interested in Facebook. I didn't. I was terrified to like, you know, to talk about it a little bit, you know, because everything, she's gonna have an ego, but the passion to get it out there outweighed my fear. And then I became good, getting good at it became better became better and better at it, you know, the more passionate but Absolutely.

Alex Ferrari 16:31
Now speaking of social media, do you think that you need to create a specific social media presence for each film? Or do you create a brand around yourself as the filmmaker and promote all of your projects through that, that those social channels?

Clarissa Jacobson 16:48
Well, I think you could do it either way, like I have. I'm a co creator with my partner, Shane Webber and we have trouble minx. But I still, you know, we have like everything. We have our projects all there. But I still like have a separate website for lunch, ladies, we're doing a feature and I have a separate, separate thing. I mean, it unless you're like Richard Linklater, right, like everybody knows who you are. I think it's I think it's harder to like drive people to it, than it would be just to send somebody your film and just go hey, guess what, go to my website. And they don't have you know, lunch ladies movie calm, and they can just look at their versus going to my rebel makes website, trying to find where it is trying to find what it's about. And you can put a lot more information.

Alex Ferrari 17:35
Well, yes, but not as much on the websites. I agree with you on the websites. I'm talking about social media. So mean, like, Oh, do we have it do have a lunch lady Twitter account, which has maybe x amount of people on it? Or do you go to rebel minx and have that as your main

Clarissa Jacobson 17:50
One for the films because that way you can gauge who's involved in the films, okay. versus, you know, versus just it might just be your they might be in the one film and another so you know, how many you can gauge how many people are into it? I think it's easier for? I don't know, like, it feels like it's, it feels very professional to have a film website. Like, I don't I mean, I haven't really looked at like, you know, the big films out there. But I would bet that like, like, let's say Warner Brothers puts out a film. I bet all those films have their own social media just feels more,

Alex Ferrari 18:25
But they also have $200 million back.

Clarissa Jacobson 18:27
They don't cost anything to open it up Twitter counters or anything. I just work.

Alex Ferrari 18:32
Yeah, it's it's a lot of work. Absolutely. I think it all depends, too is how much how long? What's the long game here? Because if it's just the one movie because it takes so long to get one movie made, let alone trying to do like two or three. So focusing all your energies at the beginning on individual projects would be great. But then you could also coincide that with a company site or branded site like, like trauma. I'm thinking like trauma films. Yeah. If you're making the same

Clarissa Jacobson 18:58
Thing because trauma has I mean, differently good trauma has a very specific niche style, right? If you're a filmmaker maybe who just does so like I have a comedy horror I have a historical horror, I have a feel good drama I have. There's my films are different. So it'd be hard for somebody who likes I mean, you know, they might people I think would like that like my stuff like my voice, but they might not necessarily like my drama, they might only like my comedy horror. So then, um, you know, I just feel like I can groom people so much more just having, you know, but like, like a trauma. You're expecting a cert in there. All those films are kind of the same, the same vibe. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 19:37
I agree. So if you are a filmmaker who's going to be like, I'm going to be a horror filmmaker. And that's all I'm going to do. That might be something. Yeah, I can see doing that way. Yeah. Or if you're a comedy, and all you do is comedy, there might be something of but if you want to, you know, move across. I gotcha. Gotcha. Now, the big thing with with short films is film festivals. Like how do I get into film festivals? How do I submit the Film Festivals. What's that? What's the it's a land. It's a landmine, field Land, land field related land, field minefield, a minefield of all sorts of do's and do nots and secret. Like you shouldn't do that. But no one's ever told me that before and all this kind of stuff. So what advice do you have for filmmakers submitting to film festivals today?

Clarissa Jacobson 20:24
Well, first of all, and I think I read this in a book a while back and that but I kind of perfected my way of doing it is to have to have a list. But you you can you, you have an Excel spreadsheet where it tells what the early bird is the you know, the so that so that way you can track you can look at that spreadsheet every day and track to get your films to get your film in the early bird. So you can save money that way. And you can kind of organize it by you know, by what you want from your films. So like, Are you a person who wants to have maybe be nominated for an Oscar so like, for example, I was like, Yeah, fuck yeah, I want to be nominated for an Oscar. I'm gonna go I'm gonna go for all the Oscar films for sure. Right? Don't put those all on my list. And then I'm going to go for you know, I'm going to do I did a little research about you know, you like great horror festivals. And so I knew I wanted to be a bunch of horror. So I put those on my list. And then I started really getting into the idea. pretty early on that I was going to get subtitles for everything because even though that's a little bit upfront, you put like 100 bucks or whatever down for 200 bucks for your subtitles. In the end, it saves you so much money because so many festivals across the world are free to enter. And so once I got on the bandwagon of getting first of all, just getting your English subtitles is amazing because once you get your English subtitles, a lot of film festivals will just take your film. Foreign festivals will take your film as your film with the English subtitles and make subtitles for you. So I think that the first festival I got in that was I submitted it with English subtitles was more beat on then they wanted Spanish subtitles. But then all the festivals after that, that I entered, they all made the male made the subtitles for me and then opened up this incredible world in Europe where all the festival first of all, like I went on other other sites because people want always want to just go on Film Freeway, well, there's fest home, there's short film depot, and you can find like the most amazing freakin festivals on there. But your film has got to have some subtitles. But by the time you're done, you're you're you know, so I would what I would do is I go on those those sites and I'd look every week and see what the what ones coming up work, you know, and then I see is that right for me. And if it's free to enter a couple bucks, what do you have to lose nothing, if you got your subtitles. And then you're also having a long game if you have your subtitles, because then if you get picked up by a sales rep, or you do it yourself, then you can, which is harder to do it yourself to get your film distributed in Europe. But if you have a sales rep, then they can go and sell your film in France and Germany, because you already have the subtitles. So I you know, so like, and the other thing is, is a lot of people would say to me, can I have your list? You know, because I want to know, I want to know which ones to enter. And I would say Well, first of all, every film is different. So my film was a 18 minute film. So I didn't there was festivals, I couldn't enter because it was too long, too long. My comedy horror, and in AI and the thing about doing your own list and going out there and researching and like looking at these festivals and see and looking at their websites is pretty soon you start to get a real feel of what's out there, what your film might be right for now, you're always surprised by what your film gets in, like, sometimes you think Oh, for sure that's a shoo in. And other times you don't you know, but you do get a feel, you do get a feel. And I can't say enough even though it's a lot of work to create a list, you know, about what first of all the film, the festivals that you think will fit your film, the festivals that are free. The festivals that maybe are Oscar and you you make that list and you also put the early bird down. So you know that you know how much money you're spending or you know how to weigh it. Once you've made that list. It's like you kind of feel I mean, I like I really got like a real feel of what's out there. And what in what to submit to and how and how to do it, how to get stuff going. So I think it's really important. Like I get filmmakers all the time. I'm like, hey, you know, like, I'll see their phone be like, I bet this film would be great for this or this or this, like I'll give I'm happy to like tell people that. But I but I don't like when people say can I have your list? Because I'm like, how is my list that specific for my film going to help your film? Right? You have to take that time. You have to take that time to create that list. And I was coming from Ground Zero to like I had never been on the festival route. I didn't know I mean, you know, I knew I knew Sundance.

Alex Ferrari 24:50
Yeah. Yes. The five the top five. Okay, no, Toronto. Yeah, yeah, Rebecca

Clarissa Jacobson 24:56
Just got to get out there and just kind of like and then another way that I did it too as I decided that I wanted my lunch ladies to go all over the world. So I'd be like, Oh, God, I gotta get in a festival in Venezuela I haven't been an investor woman is and which ones these have not been Venezuela yet.

Alex Ferrari 25:10
She's still trying, but they didn't they didn't pay your weight. All right, you bet you paid your own way. No, no,

Clarissa Jacobson 25:15
I mean, I met like my, my film, like, I had this feeling like I would create, I created a map of where they had been, because I loved the idea of them going to these, you know, places like in December, it's going to be in Bali. I mean, it's going, you know, so like, There's something so amazing about having your film be seen all over the world. So that's another way to do it, like has your film been seen in Spain and to not get to not give up because it can take a while to break into a country. And then once you break in, it's like, the programmers all talk to each other. And they get to you, they hear about you and the Europeans especially like, I feel like the programmers there really talk to each other and really share films, and really, they'll play your film more than once. So you know, that's another way to do it, too, is like geo geographically or like, which states have by knocking into if you can't decide which ones to enter, you know,

Alex Ferrari 26:05
So the thing, I think one of the big problems that filmmakers have, as well as they always focus on the top five, or 10, the Sundance is and the slam dances and these, these kind of festivals, and the I always tell them, like the chances of you getting your film in are so astronomical. I mean, it was like 30,000 submissions to Sundance last night. And, you know, 110, including shorts get in. So it's so astronomical to get into those kinds of things. And they feel like they're failures when they don't get into the big, the big 10, or the big 20, even bigger, and I always tell them, It's not about you. It's not personal, it's not about your film, you're not hitting what they are looking for that year, that year, they really might be into this kind of film, with this kind of filmmaker attached to it. It's political, it has little to do with the quality of your film, to be honest with you, because I've seen a lot of good projects that don't get in. And then I see projects, sometimes it like, I never forgot this. And forgive me if there's a filmmaker who did this, but I couldn't. I was so angry. I was at Sundance, was such Sundance, and I went I went to the shorts of a shorts block. And I see is called Batman goes on a date, a Robin goes on a date. Okay, and it's Justin Long as Robin and Sam Rockwell as Batman. And, and, and Robin and Justin is like, you know, trying to go on a date, and then Batman's trying to basically move in on Robins date. And that's the short film. And I'm sitting there going, if that was done with anybody other than Justin and Sam rock, it would have never made the Sundance block. And I go, that's just that just upset me. Because I was like, I don't have access to SAM and Justin, especially in 2005. So that it just was like, but that's the way the game is played. It's unfortunate. It's unfortunate. Sometimes, you'll get you know, and then sometimes you'll get the Cinderella stories and sometimes you'll get people that don't have names, get into those festivals, of course, based on their quality and things like that. But that was just one example. It's like, oh, it's not really about my project.

Clarissa Jacobson 28:18
I I find that like you have to go for the big ones. Sure. Because it's fun. But also sometimes like there's ones that are like just so that opened up so many freakin doors. I've had festivals that have opened up so many doors you know that that maybe if that you know cuz I've seen I you know, I talked about this so like, you know, I didn't my film did not get in Sundance. Okay. But,

Alex Ferrari 28:49
Mine either by the way, you're in good company,

Clarissa Jacobson 28:52
You know, but then my film got in Claremont fron and that was the festival that I needed to get it going. Sure. But But, but you know, there's plenty people I mean, come up front is the most amazing festival. There's plenty people don't know, Claremont fry is right. So you know, I got you know, I'd get in that one or I get in some small or into some small festival that I couldn't get in. Or I'd enter another festival that nobody had heard of, but that festival would open another door for something else. So like the idea is like to check out the festivals and make sure they have a real thing going you know, to know that they're legit or not to feel good fake or, and to really just be thankful when you get in them and not. You know, like it was it was a total crazy thing when it got in that one and I wasn't even in the competitive section. And it still was like the most amazing thing in the world. But like, I didn't get in South by Southwest I didn't get in you know a ton of it. But there's always a festival that's that it's for your film and you just got to get out there and just submit some MIT submit and realize, you know, like when I actually did a whole, a whole chapter about that, about why your film doesn't get in festivals, because it's a mindfuck. If you if you go down that path to start believing that your film was bad, you'll drop out and I talked to people that will be like, Oh, I've entered 10 festivals, and I only got one. So I'm dropping out. And I'm like, you know, the average is 10% of the festivals that you get in. So that means you're gonna average film gets in only 10% of the festivals. Oh, yeah. Just get out there and keep, and you can't have, you know, like, there's people that I know, that's a small festival, you know, some of the smallest festivals have been the most amazing.

Alex Ferrari 30:36
Three are the best. They're the best it was ever. I went to I went to when I with my first film, I, I got into so many festivals, but I got into my first 35 festivals turned down from all the major festivals because I had a 20 minute, right, you know, action thriller, not the film festival grading, you know. So, you know, I got into a lot of genre and all that stuff. But after 35 episodes at 35, festivals, I'd spent about $1,000, in submission fees. So I was just like, I didn't know anything about anything. I was just trying to

Clarissa Jacobson 31:10
Bring up the free festivals in Europe.

Alex Ferrari 31:12
I mean there was no free festivals in Europe. I didn't know about any of that stuff. And subtitling costs $10 a minute. So back then it was a whole other world. But then after a while, I said, Well, I got into 35 festivals, no festival that I'm going to get into from this point on is going to explode my career is the way I thought about it. So I'm like, right, I just boycotted paying for festivals anymore. So I just said, I'm not gonna pay for any more festivals. Now. Right? What I did at that point is I didn't stop submitting, I submitted to everybody. And because my branding and my marketing was was so on point with the trailer, my trailer was watched 20,000 times back in 2005. So it was a whole lot like, you know, it's I think it's one of the first trailers ever on YouTube. I'm so old, is I looked it up. I looked it up the other day. I looked it up the other day. And I was like, oh my god, am I the first movie trailer ever on YouTube? And I found, I think Sony Classics had put one up. Oh, my God, I love it. So so it's still up there. And it got like 20 30,000 views back then I've seen and it's a great trailer. Yes. So it was so because of that, I was very confident. I was like, hey, look, I already got some of these other vessels. So what I would do is I would submit to everybody, I mean, I did not discriminate, I submitted to everybody that could be submitted to, and then they would go back and like oh, we like your film, I'm like, great. If you if I'm accepted, I'll be more than happy to pay your submission fee. But I'm not gonna pay a submission fee. If for the mere chance of getting it because at this point in the game, I'm not gonna throw another three or 4000. Right. And I it worked enough that I got into another couple.

Clarissa Jacobson 32:53
And it does get Yeah, I mean, the truth is, is like, you know, if you get that roll going, then people start to come to you. Right. And actually, it takes a little bit, you know, like it's building you know, Jerome Kershaw and calls it a pedigree, it's building that pedigree, I didn't realize that that's what I was doing. When I was like, you know, emailing every single day, you know, someone to write about my film, no matter how small it was, like every single day, like just just building these reviews, building these reveals just creating this buzz for my film. So that after about I would say it took it took a while, but about six or seven months, then I started having people come to me saying, Can I see the film, you don't have to pay the you don't pay the submission fee? Can I see the film? You know,

Alex Ferrari 33:36
It takes a minute, it takes a minute, but once you're able to build up that momentum at a certain point, and don't get me wrong, I got a lot of film festivals. I was like, yeah, no, we need you to pay the submission. I'm like, that's fine. I'm not going to.

Clarissa Jacobson 33:47
And you hustle in the beginning and you always gotta hustle through the whole thing, but it does. But when it starts snowballing and you start getting like people excited and hearing about it and stuff like that, then then it becomes even becomes even more worth it. You know, cuz getting some positive reinforcement.

Alex Ferrari 34:02
And some of the best experiences I've ever had at festivals are always been the small ones. Because it's, it's, it's kind of a mom and pop. Like, you know, everybody, everybody knows you. They treat you like family. Whereas in some larger festivals who shall remain nameless?

Clarissa Jacobson 34:18
Yeah, I can go over that with you.

Alex Ferrari 34:21
After Yeah, I mean, there's a there's one specifically in LA.

Clarissa Jacobson 34:26
I think. That same one. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 34:29
And that specific one in 2005 It's not Holly shorts, by the way. I love Holly shorts. It but I I do 1005 I submitted and got accepted. And it was a fairly big one. It was an Oscar, whatever qualifier and all this kind of stuff. I flew my ass across the country. Put myself up in Hollywood. Can you imagine I was in a hotel in Hollywood. Me and my friend. I never forgot it. We might meet my producing partner we got into this hotel room and the beds. Like

Clarissa Jacobson 35:10
Shut the window.

Alex Ferrari 35:11
No the beds were they were so they were so close to each other it almost seemed comedic.

Clarissa Jacobson 35:17
Like you want trains and automobiles?

Alex Ferrari 35:20
Like is this is this a cleaning closet? And then like out front when I walk into like, you know Marilyn Monroe stayed here once I'm like I'm sure she did but Jesus guys so it caught it cost us a couple you know, by 1000 bucks. 1500 bucks, if not more back to go over there. So we get to our screening. We were in a block with everybody else. And then at the end, no q&a. No q&a, only thing I wanted. It was a q&a. And I talked to the the programmers there and then everyone's like, Sorry, can't do it. We're running late. I'm like, dude, and oh, by the way, I wasn't even the worst another another poor filmmaker in that block flew from Spain. And he didn't get his his and he only had the one screening. There's nothing so yeah, and that's off air. I'll tell you some other stories. But But, but but but, but some of these smaller festivals like there's a wonderful festival down in Florida called the Melbourne Independent Film Festival. I know those guys really well. They love filmmakers. They treated me like like gold. And they're wonderful. There's so many great film festivals out there that that will treat filmmakers well. So don't always look at the big boys the big boys.

Clarissa Jacobson 36:35
Oh, you do you do a nice little mix and then yeah, and now that they have you know fest home and Short Film depot, you can enter the foreign festivals for like next to nothing. And in I've had just met so many amazing people. Yeah. Let's talk many amazing people in the foreign festivals.

Alex Ferrari 36:53
So let's talk let's talk a little bit about the experience of working a festival because a lot of filmmakers just go there with their eyes full of shiny golden lights. and the like. Oh look the

Clarissa Jacobson 37:04
Right expectations like I had to Morty to see

Alex Ferrari 37:07
Exactly, you're like, oh my god, this is gonna be a mate's gonna be like up because all you think about a Sundance, so you think everything's gonna be like, I'm gonna walk the red carpet, there's gonna be people taking pictures of me everyone's gonna want to talk to me about my genius, and about my my artistic expression and how amazing I am. And then eventually, obviously, Steven Spielberg, or somebody is going to watch me for sure, obviously, from going to that first festival. So when you get there, so can we talk a little bit about how to actually work a festival, how to take advantage of what they have to offer and things like that, because a lot of filmmakers just go they're completely clueless about what this is, and what the true opportunities are. And what the true complete delusions?

Clarissa Jacobson 37:54
Yes, absolutely. So one thing is that you can do is you can always work a festival, even if you're not there. Oh, so that means that when you talk to the programmers, so they know who you are, like, don't be a pain in the ass, but you know, talk to them and say, you know, can I send postcards? Can I can I send a poster and I mean, I've sent them to Europe as many times as I could, because if because if you're not going to be there, at least or postcards will be there. And I will tell you like, even if you're not there the first part of the week, and you hear coming the second part of the week, you want your postcards there on the table, I've had distributors that have gone to see the film, because there was a postcard on the frickin table even though I wasn't there. So that's the first way to work your festival is to make sure you know and you got it you have to ask sometimes festivals don't want your swag and they don't want all that but like, you know, get up try to have a presence, then, you know, earned learned early on don't have expectations about how you think it's going to go. So I have a funny story about Morabito fest, which I just I love it so much. But when I went there, I missed my film both times the first time I got in an Uber X. For the first day I was in such a bad. It was like you know that James Bond movie, I got stuck in a Day of the Dead parade and I was running and I was sobbing and I was like me put me Gouda, which was the only Spanish words I knew. And I was running and I was like I couldn't the taxi cab driver dropped me off on the side of the freeway. I ran up I ran into this huge parade. I got to my film right when it was over and got to do the q&a with mascara running down my face. Said the second time.

Alex Ferrari 39:25
I mean, it was a horror comedy. So that makes sense.

Clarissa Jacobson 39:30
What is it 2000 3000 miles to know I know to do this to do this, right? And then the second time the film play twice. I was like I'm gonna get there really early. So I got there really early, you know, like had a gin and tonic like talk to people. And then I found out two minutes before that it was canceled. Yeah. And then I got in a second Uber accident on the way home. So like you'd think this would be like the worst situation right? Well, it wasn't because first of all I like I said I was telling you earlier I had stood in line for the opening night and I met my director there that of my current film. So if I hadn't gone to morbido Fest, I never would have met him. The grammar was just so wonderful like I I talked to him so many times, they've been so supportive, I wrote about them on my book. So you could look at that experiences like, oh my god, that was the worst experience in a world because you have this expectation that you're gonna go to the more Beto fast which is this amazing festival in Mexico City, you're going to be like hobnobbing, and you're going to Oh, and also I went to there was supposed to be a party and I went, I was there by myself and I speak Spanish and we're supposed to be a party. I go to the party, and the guy goes, no party here. No party here. So I went to a bar by myself drink a margarita. And the next morning, I saw on Instagram that they were all partying at the place where they told me there was no need. So that kind of like week but like, but at the same time, like that's when I was like, I already kind of gotten gone to a few festivals where it was like your expectation of what do you have no freakin idea what its gonna be but like, if you can just open it. Open yourself up to it. Something always something amazing always comes out of it. Even the worst festivals I've been horrible festivals where I meet just one person that's so freakin amazing. And they become like my best buddy. And they helped me so much. So the first thing is to try not to have expectations and know that something positive will always come out of it. And then you want to be as prepared as possible with all your stuff. So like, there was many times when I was the only one there with a poster

Alex Ferrari 41:24
Oh my god a poster and an easel postcards all that.

Clarissa Jacobson 41:27
I mean, it sounds simple. It's a pain in the ass to bring it but yeah, if you have a poster and evil people will see will tend to go to see your film over other people's films.

Alex Ferrari 41:36
Right, exactly. And it's, it's, it's just an interesting the whole thing I remember when I first my first I never forgot my first film festival ever got into because I didn't know anything about premieres or if there was premieres or anything like that. So I submitted and got into the Ocean City Film Festival in New Jersey. It's amazing way to make it. I won Best Director. Right, like right first first festival. I don't like a set. I'm like, This is gonna be easy. Like, obviously, everyone's seeing my changes. Like everyone's seeing my genius right away. This is Oh, I should be directing a studio movie within a year. And then I didn't get another award for a year.

Clarissa Jacobson 42:26
That's hard to like when you get in the you don't get you get rejected. But then you get then you then you don't you know, because it comes in waves get kinds of waves, you'll get accepted to a bunch and then it'll be like eight or nine rejections. Oh, yeah, it's it's never gonna get in another festival.

Alex Ferrari 42:42
No, no, it's crazy. But so but the best part was when I looked them up. And again, guys, this was 2005 when I looked it up on their website, which if you can imagine what a 2005 website done by somebody who doesn't know what a website is? It's absolutely brilliant. It was my film was being played at like Billy Bob's Crab Shack. And that was where they were holding the festival. They were like, basically just projecting it in the back of the bar. And this guy, and I think that went on for like two or three. I think it went on for two, three years. And then what a great story, but one I wish I would have gone. I wish I would have gone it would have been amazing. But yeah, but you just never. You never know who you're gonna meet. My best. My best story of working a festival is working Sundance, because I didn't get into Sundance, but I worked it. So in 2005 when my first film came out, my first short broken came out. I flew to Sundance, even though we got rejected, and we were just gonna like make sure everybody at Sundance knew about our film and we literally walked Mainstreet on Park in Park City, with a DVD portable DVD player really was showing people showing people the trailer. And we had postcards all over the place. And people are like, Where can I see this? And I would just send everybody to our website. And I got so much attention. We actually got more attention than most of the festival film.

Clarissa Jacobson 44:04
Yeah, you have to put yourself out there. You know, like, even if you're afraid and believe me, I'm I. I mean, I was so happy to be like out there doing it. So like, sure, you know, up but but I but yeah, there is fear like that. Yo, how am I going to talk to people, you know, and it's like, you just got to talk to people. You don't just pitch pitch. You get to know people and you like, and sometimes it's even better if you don't have your sometimes it's even better, it's fun, or if you have your team with you. But sometimes it's better even if you're by yourself. Because you need more people that way.

Alex Ferrari 44:35
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that it was at that year that we did I think one year we actually wrote We created our own passes. So my parties, so we actually created of like this ridiculous pass. That would not fool anybody. But again, this is 2005 so Sundance was a little bit different. And it just said All Access. That's all it said. It was just an all access. You have no idea

Clarissa Jacobson 45:00
But that takes so much chutzpah like I love that. They're probably like knew knew it was bullshit, but they were like, Oh man, we got to let these guys in because it's been

Alex Ferrari 45:08
You have no idea how many places we got in to. Because we acted like we were in the festival and we're like, oh yeah. And we will leave our postcards it like Sundance's like headquarters and then like, back in the day, like, Who's this guy? And you see it all in the garbage cans we pick them out of the garbage can we like it was just straight up. It was just straight up porcelain like hard, hardcore stuff, but we met or hustle but we met producers distributors that way we had it led to me flying up to they flew me up to Toronto to when we were going to try to make the feature and all this kind of craziness all because we went to a festival that we weren't accepted in. Yeah.

Clarissa Jacobson 45:49
And you work it you talk to people you like got a really I mean, it was parties we were we were like when I was at Monster palooza. I just walked up and down the line. Because I knew that people were there not to see films. And I just was like here, here's a lunch ladies here. Now we please show up my show.

Alex Ferrari 46:06
So this is so this is so this I'm going to tell the story. I'm I don't know if I should tell this story. But I think

Clarissa Jacobson 46:10
Yes, please do. If it's embarrassing tell it

Alex Ferrari 46:12
It's not embarrassing. It's actually a it's a hack. It's one of the many hacks discovered at Sundance.

Clarissa Jacobson 46:19
The to hacks, man. Okay.

Alex Ferrari 46:20
All right. So that was about it. But it does affect somebody else. So we knew so so because we were hustling so much. There was this one agent at CAA that we met there at some parties. And he was, he was a prick. And he wasn't very nice, but we knew his name. So what we would do is we would go to a party up in the hills at one of these giant houses. And they're like, where's the list? And like, Hi, John, John Smith from CAA. And they're like, go right on, and Mr. Smith, we would get there early before John would get that that was like because, because he treated us badly. So then what we would do is, so I would get in, and then I would walk in and find an exit or somewhere and I would let my buddy and I let my buddy and on the side. So we're there. Like I'd never forgot it. We were at this giant house, in the middle of you know, up in the hills in Park City. And we're like partying next to like, Paul Walker, Elijah Wood. Paris Hilton was there at the time, like, all awesome, man. I mean, we were just like, fifth. It's awesome. Oh my God, I believe we're here. Like love that you did that. But that's it. But you know, there was I was younger, I was more foolish that thing times with different guys times were different. But don't do that to any agents that cool guys, please. But, but it was a way it was. And we and one other trick that we did is we got to Sundance probably a date too early, while they were setting up. And we became we became friends with the door guys. That's smart, too. So we walked in, we became friends. We befriended them, we bought them little drinks here and there. So when the parties were happening on Main Street, we just walk up and like Baba and Baba would let us right in. And that was and that and we were able to get into parties that we had no business being in whatsoever. None. None whatsoever, like people are like is that why are these people? What the hell have these idiots? What's all access? What is that about? So? Oh, no, I should write a book just on my Sundance adventures. That's why I made my movie ego and desire because I'd love I just love.

Clarissa Jacobson 48:32
Yeah, I just started watching it. So fun. I think girls are pissed off, get all the credit.

Alex Ferrari 48:40
Because that never happens. Never happens in filmmaking ever. Never. He goes, he goes in filmmaking. Never in a million years would that happen? So, um, so let me get oh,

Clarissa Jacobson 48:53
And show up. The other thing too, is to show up, like can cost you $1,000 Go to the festivals like I mean, I saved a little nest egg. And I found out you know, using Scott's flights, which is amazing that you could go to Europe for pretty much the same price as you can go to New York City to see a festival because a lot of the foreign festivals will pay for your hotels or they'll put for for you know, food or whatever. You know, and I just can't tell you like how valuable it was just meeting just going and meet new people.

Alex Ferrari 49:23
And especially if you're if you're not in LA or New York or Austin or or a hub where there's a lot of filmmakers or in Atlanta. You you get to interact with your kind. Your your people, you meet other filmmakers, you meet other producers, you meet other writers and the networking that you do at these festivals. Even if it's a little hole in the wall festival is important. There's somebody there that you can meet. You have no idea who you can meet there. And sometimes there's a panelist who's on a panel somewhere and you walk up afterwards, and you and you introduce yourself and it's a Weird thing at a festival? Like you couldn't do that on the streets of LA. But no. But at a festival, it's acceptable to a certain extent. Like if they're at the bar, you can walk up to them. And Oh, totally friend.

Clarissa Jacobson 50:13
What do you do? Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 50:15
Do you have any advice? All that stuff? By the way, if you do meet somebody at a festival that's like, you know, big writer, big director, producer, don't just start asking them for things. Please know where and Can I buy you a drink? You know, what advice do you know? What advice do you have for him? But don't go hey, can you see my movie? Hey, can you Hey, hey, I got this script. Don't.

Clarissa Jacobson 50:37
Don't you know, the other good way to is, I know, this goes without saying, but this happened. I mean, this happened. And I talked about this in book two. Another way to make sure that you work a festival is is freakin support the other filmmakers see their films. And when you go to a block and your film is played, don't get up after yours is done. Watch the rest of the films. Right? Do that not like really? Nothing is like worse will than going to a block and somebody gets up in the middle after their film is done and doesn't watch the rest of the filmmakers to support them.

Alex Ferrari 51:12
Yeah, there's there's that Yeah. Yeah, I've been in those. I've been in those as well. And

Clarissa Jacobson 51:18
Makers are your like best.

Alex Ferrari 51:20
The worst is when you get to a film when you're at a film festival, and like the only people in the audience are you in the crew. And that's and there's like, Okay, we bought 10 tickets. Okay. I see there's some sort of

Clarissa Jacobson 51:33
Every once in a while, there's a small audience and yeah, which is great, which is great. And you're like, Oh, bummer. It's a small audience. But I've learned to love small audiences, too. Because sometimes, you could have a huge audience and not a single person could do anything for you, you can have a small audience, and there's somebody there that can help you in some way or wants to help you. Right? So never look down on even a small audience. You just don't know who's in that audience.

Alex Ferrari 51:55
I'm gonna I'm gonna tell one more story. When I was at the Toronto Film Festival, in 2005, or six, somebody, one of the producers who I was working with at the time to like, Hey, we're distributing this film. Here's a ticket to go see this film. It was like a, an independent film. I'm like, Cool. So I went, and we sat there. And I was with my partner, my producing partner, and we look in the back and the like, is that Roger Ebert? sitting in the corner of the theater? And he goes, I think it is, I'm like, let's go up and talk to him. This is before the movie starts. Like let's, let's go up and talk to Roger Ebert. So we walk up over to Roger Ebert. And Roger, you know, we're like, Oh, my God, Roger, you're like the best. Like, you know, we're such big fans of yours, all this stuff. So we're talking to Roger Ebert. And all of a sudden, and then we start, like, we start yapping about our film, like, Oh, we got this, we've got our movie. And we did it for like $8,000. And it's got like 100 visual effects shots in and we shot it with its digital camera, and it looks like film and all this kind of stuff. And we're disputing things off. There is nowhere in my mind that I believe that Roger Ebert will ever watch my film. That's not even that that has not even crossed my mind at all. I'm just depressing. I'm just expressing. I'm just expressing I'm just expressing to Roger Ebert, who was an idol of mine, what I've done as a filmmaker, right in the middle of the conversation, I see something change in his eyes, and he kind of tilts his head, and he goes, Can I take a picture of you guys? And I said, Sure, Roger Ebert. That would be awesome. That was he had, he had his, like, he carried around the, you know, this is before iPhones. So he carried around his, you know, his, his digital his camera with them. So he, and he, you know, we take a picture, he takes a picture of both of us. And, and the only ignorant thing in my mind is like, well, now I can ask him for a picture too, because he asked for one of ours because I wasn't going to ask him for one until this happened. Because I'm not that guy didn't want to like you get big. But he took one of me. So now it's fair. I want to take a picture with you. And he's like, Sure. So I got a picture with Roger. And and then he's like, you know, this story would make a nice little story from my blog, about up and coming technologies, and all of this cause all the up and coming technologies and filmmakers using this. I'm like, great. Would you like to watch our movie? Bam, here's a DVD. And we happen to have our DVD with us. And he's like, Sure, I'll take this. So we took it. And we're like, great, you know, because originally, as we were talking and talking, he's like, Guys, I can't I can't watch your film. I it's not in the festival and I there's so many hours in a day I have and we're like, Roger, of course you're not going to watch our film. You're Roger Ebert. Why in God's green earth would you watch our little $8,000 short film from West Palm Beach, Florida. Like, hey, makes no sense. I made him want to watch it. Um, so then he grabbed it. He took it and we're like, okay, hold on. Ever watch that, but that was really nice of him to do that we got a picture with Roger, but that's all we got. So we fly back to Florida, when we land, our emails blowing up because everyone's like, Roger Ebert reviewed your film on his blog, and wrote a story about

Clarissa Jacobson 55:15
The jackpot.

Alex Ferrari 55:16
I'm like, what? And we went to his website, and oh, my God, it's there. It's still there. It's still it's still there. He wrote a long article about a bunch of films he watched. And he in that article, he also wrote about us that he watched the film, he gave us two lines in the movie, effective and professional. What did he say? Oh, got it. I used to repeat it, like on verbatim, but he's like, Oh, the mastery of horror imagery and techniques. I'm like, holy cow, Roger,

Clarissa Jacobson 55:49
But he was he was vibing on your authenticity and your passion. So I would I had similar things happen like that. No, but it was situation at Claremont fron were friends 24 There's a million filmmakers. And they came up to me and I got to have my little film on Fritz 24. You know, what it was to me sedative section. But he said, I said, Why me? He goes, because you were so passionate and excited about your film. So that like translates that's uh, you know, that's, you know, bringing it up. I'm sure. That's why he probably was like, There's no way in hell, I'm gonna see these guys film, but your passion and your authenticity about it, not pushing it. He was like, I got to see this.

Alex Ferrari 56:26
And I'll never forget, I will never forget that to the day I die that a giant like Roger Ebert that's insane. Gave a little a little he sprinkled a little magic dust on on us. And then from there ever was still the best bet still the best film critic in history of film critics. Yeah. But he because of that quote. And because of that attention. I that was my lead with zactly every festival I'm like Roger Ebert reviewed it, Roger Avery, because

Clarissa Jacobson 56:55
See, that's what I mean. Like, when you You never know, like, who's gonna be there. And what you're in is going to be I mean, I've talked about this before, like, I've been in festivals, you know, with films that have gone to Sundance where they, the people in Sundance did their film, they did nothing with their film, they didn't promote it, they were just like, if I was in Sundance, right, their film didn't go anywhere. It just wasn't Sundance, that was it? Right. So. So you know, like, you don't have to get in sun. You know, it's what you do with your film where and who you the passion that you exude when you're you're there. And you you meet? Roger you, but

Alex Ferrari 57:28
It was the most and it was such an it was like, like you were talking about earlier is like, how do these things happen? There was no reason for us to be there, there would have been never asked juried in everything. Everything just happened. Like I met this person that

Clarissa Jacobson 57:41
They feel like I feel like you just drew that dude to you

Alex Ferrari 57:44
No, there's there. Yeah, there was an energy there thing there no question. But then you're like, Okay, here's the ticket to the screening of this obscure independent film from Australia, then, and then I just happened he showed up and showed up and oh, my God, there's

Clarissa Jacobson 57:57
The universe gave me the ticket. And a lot of people be like, oh, you know what, I'm just gonna go have a drink with my buddy. You know, you know, like, I'm gonna go next door that Oh,

Alex Ferrari 58:06
And that and that that one moment, or that one moment opened up so many doors, and I got called by, like I said, Oscar winning producer.

Clarissa Jacobson 58:15
Oh, my God. Yeah. Example the proof for

Alex Ferrari 58:19
Yeah, it was in for a short film. That wasn't in the festival in 2005.

Clarissa Jacobson 58:25
He doesn't even he doesn't he doesn't learn there. He does. Yeah, I mean, he does, I think, only times I've ever heard him even

Alex Ferrari 58:31
Reviewing a short. And when I say review, I use that term very loosely. He watched it and gave me to

Clarissa Jacobson 58:36
Talk about it. And he said nothing about it, and you can use it. And it was positive. It said something positive.

Alex Ferrari 58:42
It was sneaky. And he was so kind. I could have said negative. But he was the thing about him is he he was kind when he didn't need to be kind. He was supportive when he didn't need to be supportive. And that is that is the hallmark of a great, great person in our business. Because and I've heard this, I've heard similar stories about Steven Spielberg, constantly do out. I interview many of his collaborators. I've spoken to many people who've worked with him on the writing side, on the cinematography side on the producing side. And I hear the same things about Stephen that he does things behind the scenes that you're just like, oh my god, he has no reason to be. He there's no need for him to

Clarissa Jacobson 59:29
Always here. Good stuff. James Cameron.

Alex Ferrari 59:32
James Cameron. Well, James Cameron, let me I'd love Jim. I mean, Jim is Jim he's, there's no other filmmaker liking

Clarissa Jacobson 59:39
Stuff, good stuff behind the scenes about him. I've heard good stuff, too.

Alex Ferrari 59:42
He helps. He helps when he can help. I've heard there's also those legendary stories about his temper onset. But, um, but he's he's mellowed over the years and I know a lot of people who've worked with Jim as well. Um, I actually know what it is neighbors cuz he told me stories I was like, he has what? What does he do? That's amazing. But there's there's these giants who who are kind when they don't need to be kind, you know, I got a I got a an autograph from George Lucas in middle of from when he was only gonna have to that's just his book I wish I was a Stanley Kubrick. But But yeah, like he didn't have he didn't have to be that nice. So there's these giants who are nice and are that don't need to be nice and that's such a refreshing thing and Roger Ebert story is one of those. But anyway, so that's something we could keep. We can keep yapping about this for hours, where can people where can people buy your book?

Clarissa Jacobson 1:00:48
Um, so you can get it at my website? HeyImClarissaJ, or you can get it on Amazon, Barnes and Noble target Sunbury Press published, so you can get it there. If you get it from my website, I'll send you some lunch lady swag. Book. If you get it from Amazon, you probably can get a cheaper you can get it on Kindle. You know, so yeah.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:11
Is it an audio book yet? Or not yet? No, it's not you right now. But right now that my but when you're stopped when you stop talking to me, you're going to start recording your audio book. And we'll talk about it afterwards. If I ask you a few questions, ask all my guests. What advice would you have for a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Clarissa Jacobson 1:01:35
The biggest thing for me always is to surround yourself to find a class and surround yourself with people that will hold you up and help you and to keep learning.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:44
So what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Clarissa Jacobson 1:01:50
That I am enough. And everybody talks a lot about filmmakers and artists having egos. But, you know, there, I always felt and I know a lot of people feel this way that you just I just wasn't no matter how many classes I took that I just on, no matter how much I did it that there was that I just wasn't enough that I could, I couldn't you know, and then when I just kind of set back into like, I'm enough and they're either gonna get me or not get me. Things started to turn for me, like when you when you can find that belief in yourself. And I have this like, I have this crazy story like when am I in my 20s. So I, I when I was an actress, I wanted to be unmad TV. And I like this is a perfect example. I want to be a man TV and I just bugged them and bug them bug them for an audition. And I finally get to go to the audition. And you had to do three characters and an impersonation. So I decide that I'm going to dress up as my character which was a bingo lady, that the bingo lady and carry a suitcase with all my clothes and do my whole like little stand up thing with them. So I show up to the audition. And I'm the only one dressed up. And all these girls are kind of talking. And I hear like the lady at the front desk doesn't know that here, but I hear her go. Clarissa Jacobson's here, you should see her right. And I felt so mortified and so embarrassed. And so just being in that place of like, Hey, I'm awesome. I showed up. So I went and I did my audition. I did okay, it wasn't. I just was like, I was off. I was off because I was upset about it. I didn't get I didn't get on my TV. But years later, I read that Pee Wee Herman did the same thing for Saturday Night Live. And the difference between him and B was he was so completely in his own like, Fuck, yeah, I'm showing up in my clothes. I'm going to do my thing. And he owned it. And I look back as like a younger artist about thing just not owning. My does.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:46
Yeah, that's that. Yeah. It was so funny. Because I've actually, in my first feature, I worked with Deborah Wilson and, and Joe Michelle McGee on both mad TV alumni. Oh, really? Yes. And they've told me stories all the time about oh my god, it's the golden days of Mad TV and stuff.

Clarissa Jacobson 1:04:03
And I just was like, if so many times if I had just owned because I actually had a frickin good idea of I mean, it was good enough for Peewee Herman. It's just being haters. They were just being haters, you know,

Alex Ferrari 1:04:14
And if you could just be authentic with who you are. That is what's that's what makes you stand out. Yeah, you're authentic and you own your space like Andy Kaufman come out. I mean, come on. He mean, like you look at Andy Kaufman, he owned everything he did, to a level that is beyond normal human capacity. And he did it. He did it in such a level that they're just like, well, we he's we don't understand what he's doing. Let him sit next to that record player and sing my and Mighty Mouse just like it's you like, Oh my God. It's like, but that's the authenticity.

Clarissa Jacobson 1:04:49
So the new idea, don't let the haters get you down.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:53
Own it, own it, own it, own it. If your three of your favorite films of all time.

Clarissa Jacobson 1:04:59
The magic second film Santa song Gray. I don't know if you've seen that.

Alex Ferrari 1:05:03
Vaguely sounds familiar.

Clarissa Jacobson 1:05:05
Okay. A girl walks home alone. And I'm 16 candles.

Alex Ferrari 1:05:14
Nice mix.

Clarissa Jacobson 1:05:17
John Hughes is a genius. John was right teens like even today nobody writes teens like John Hughes.

Alex Ferrari 1:05:23
Amen. Amen. But Clarissa thank you so much for being on the show. It has been fun. It's been a joy talking to you. And I hope I hope a whole bunch of filmmakers go out and read the book because it is a guide to really helping you through these treacherous waters and spiders. And I appreciate you so thank you again for being on the show.

Clarissa Jacobson 1:05:42
Thanks so much, Alex. It was really fun.

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IFH 537: The Power of a Niche Audience (Saltbox TV) with Jerry Goehring and Patty Carver

saltbox tv, Jerry Goehring, Patty Carver

Today on the show we have Jerry Goehring and Patty Carver. They are the founders of Saltbox TV.

Saltbox TV is the first-ever streaming service dedicated to connecting older adults with diverse, informative, and engaging programming. Through a simple and user-friendly platform, Saltbox TV welcomes even those with no technical experience. Saltbox TV hosts various programs from music, faith, classic film & television, lifelong learning, wellness, documentaries, arts and crafts, Saltbox Originals, and everything in between.

This is the Senior streaming service I represent.  They have an incredible mission and great programming for seniors.  They’re just moving into original programming and currently developing their first reality show SILVER STARS.  Attached is a sheet that highlights that current programming which includes financial assistance, health & wellness, exercise, general entertainment, etc.

The real topic here is ageism, the lack of entertainment focused on this demo from content to devices…SALTBOX has made some incredible partnerships with players in the sr industry from pre-loading Saltbox onto tablets for seniors, playing on closed circuits TV at senior homes, and deals with Roku, Firestick, etc.

In this episode we discuss the power of niche audience, how to serve them, how to build and audience and much more. Enjoy my conversation Jerry Goehring and Patty Carver.

Right-click here to download the MP3

 

Alex Ferrari 0:00
I'd like to welcome the show Jerry Goehring and Patty Carver. How're you guys doing?

Jerry Goehring 0:16
Oh, great, Alex. Thanks for having us.

Patty Carver 0:17
Hi Alex!

Alex Ferrari 0:18
Thank you so much for coming on the show. I wanted to have you guys come on the show because you have a great product and called saltbox. TV. And, and I just was really interested in using it as a case study as far as how to focus on niche audiences as opposed to going mass market, which so many filmmakers do nowadays, creating their projects and TV thinking that they're gonna compete with Marvel, or Disney or Star Wars, or any of these kind of mass market concepts or even just a general drama or general comedy. It's very difficult in the independent film world to do that, I think focusing on the niche is so so valuable, and you guys have definitely focused on a niche. But before we get down, go down the road with with saltbox. TV. How did you guys get involved in the entertainment business in general?

Patty Carver 1:07
Well, alright.I'll go first Jerry?

Jerry Goehring 1:11
Yeah, go for it!

Patty Carver 1:13
Okay, I'll go first. So I am, I'm a singer and actress. And for the past 20 years, I've been well, Jerry and I have theatre companies. Before that, I traveled across the country doing regional stock, Dinner Theatre, cabaret in New York. And after we got married, we started some theatre companies, including Connecticut children's theatre. And Jerry, of course, has always had his his commercial projects. But as far as I go, after we got married, and we had two children, I sort of had to navigate around all that. And so I created these one woman musical programs, which I started performing in schools, libraries, historical societies, and older adult communities. And as the years rolled by, and I was able to book around my kids growing up and being carpool queen and driving to swim meets my audience flipped to almost exclusively older adult audiences, in communities. And I love this audience. And I have a database of hundreds of communities up and down the East Coast throughout the Midwest, New England. And that's a large part of what I've been doing for the past 20 years after we got married. And yeah, and so when COVID hit theater was shut down. And that and so saalbach was born of COVID. But maybe Jerry, you should just talk a little bit about your background before we start talking about soapbox. I don't know.

Alex Ferrari 3:09
You're a good husband, sir. You're a good husband.

Jerry Goehring 3:13
Fine. So yeah, so my background, my background, I'm on the other side of the footlights. I can't sing dance act, I can't do any of that stuff. But I started producing way back when in the you know, early, late 80s, early 90s, you know, in New York, and produced, I can't even tell you how many shows around the country in London elsewhere through the years, had a knife started nonprofits. For a long time, I was a turnaround guy for nonprofit theater companies when they were in trouble. I did that for a while. I would say in the last 10 years or so I've also started working on a ton of commercial projects, meaning Broadway, Off Broadway and West End. So my my, my focus has always either been on the nonprofit in the theater world and really supporting artists, young artists, young writers, young creators, and conversely, then in the commercial world, taking those artists that have a voice that really wants something to say you can tell me I love this because I pride myself on reaching an audience that is underserved. And we like Patti talked about the children's theater, we started a sound so like oh theater for children. No, no. Here's what we did. We actually got there all of our Broadway friends. We created professional shows and all we did Alex as we went to the inner cities of at risk communities and gave professional theater experiences to only pre K to second graders and at risk community how niches that that's fairly niche. It was such a unique audience that we wanted to serve and we were able to also support a lot of young artists out there that were trying to get their started in the business. So kind of go to Broadway as an example give you a broad example my first Broadway show, you probably know the movie A Christmas Story, of course. Sure. So with Ralphie and leg lamp and all that shoot your eye out. Should we all? So that's right. In fact, guy played Ralphie Peter Billingsley, you may know from the film world, he was my partner on that. And we put up the musical on Broadway with multiple Tony nominations. And we got a composer and lyricist out of University of Michigan bench pastic and Justin Paul, that, as you may know, went on to do lala land and, and, and greatest showmen dear Evan Hanson. So again, discovering young people and helping a demographic that looks like they're there. They're on the outskirts that that they do need some representation. I think that's where Patti and I have found our lives leading in that world. So that's that's kind of, you know, our background.

Alex Ferrari 5:53
Now, Jerry, I just had to ask you a side question. I've always been faster because I don't know a whole lot about Broadway, I have talked to a couple of Tony Award winners on the show. And, and I've talked to a couple people in Broadway, when I see these shows that could pop up every once in a while, which are based on movies. Some are, you know, some, you know, do very well, some don't. But I'm assuming that they're in Broadway, they're trying to tap into an existing audience that knows the property, the IP, it's very similar to what studios are doing with films like The you know, the grab a book, they'll grab a comic book, they'll grab something that already has an existing audience. So something like, obviously, Lion King is a great example, or any of the Disney shows, I remember when Lion King showed up, everyone's like Lion King, watts. And then, of course, it's still running, and it's made a couple bucks along the way. So it's something like the Christmas story is really interesting to me. Because, you know, it's a, it's not a, it's a classic, but it's not, it wasn't avatar. So it's a classic film that has an audience to it. But I guess when you and Rafi put it together, I'm assuming you're trying to tap into that audience. And it's in that as far as the business side is concerned, again, just trying to understand the niche audiences and how you're how you're approaching it.

Jerry Goehring 7:07
That's a very good question. And one I've talked about a lot through the last 10 years, you know, it seems so simple on the surface, hey, let's get an IP property that is branded already it has an audience, and they're going to come because they don't have to worry about as much about having stars or having, you know, huge, great reviews, blah, blah, because some of those don't work in the professional world. But Alex, there's the flip side of that, when you have an audience that is absolutely devotees, and your fans have an IP property, and you want to change that property, you know, you're kind of playing with fire a little bit, right? So here's what I've learned. And and A Christmas Story is a great example is how do you take the essence of an IP property that that is, beloved? And how do you change it to a new medium? Retain What was special for all the fans, but I'll take it to the new medium, like live musicals on Broadway, and how do you enrich and enrich what they and deepen what they love without tearing it apart? And still giving them what they expect? It's a very, very fine line to Krishna is a great example. For us to get to Broadway. We took five years and put it up year after year and changed it and nuanced it to make sure we could hit all those hot buttons. So niche audiences can be really tricky.

Alex Ferrari 8:23
Now, is there a song called you'll shoot your eye out? I'm just asking. Thank you. I just see that was as a fan of like, if there is not a song called you'll shoot your eye out, I you're not gonna have my money.

Jerry Goehring 8:36
Or niche audience expectations.

Patty Carver 8:40
I have to say Jerry, really was a champion of staying true to that story. And making sure that that book reflected the movie and captured the essence. Because it's easy to let that stuff go when it goes to another medium.

Alex Ferrari 8:55
Yeah, it's it's it's I mean, that movie is such a such an interesting case study. Because it did not. If I when it came out in the 80s. I remember saying it was 82. So right so wasn't a monster head. Even when it came out. It was a very male, the box office, it was a very slow burn of a film. And now it's beloved. I mean, it's like now they're they mean just the merchandise alone every Christmas you see those lamps with the leg and, and the outfits for hollow. I mean, it's insane.

Patty Carver 9:28
All over our house.

Alex Ferrari 9:29
Yeah, I'm sure. Thank you. Thank you there. For everyone listening. He just, he just focused the camera onto a leg lamp from the Christmas story. So but yeah, it's it's so which brings us to our conversation today about saltbox now, you know, I wrote a whole book about niche about that's the future of independent filmmaking. That's the future of filmmaking in general for the independent, because if you, you know it'd before in the 80s and in the 90s In the 80s, literally, and I've had this conversation with multiple filmmakers from the 80s, that like if you just finished the film, it was sold. It didn't even matter if it was good or not. If you were able to get 35 millimeter settled, Lloyd edited and put in a can, it's not gonna make money, like it can be sad to be good, but had a shot, you would go into theaters automatically, because you were one of 50 people making movies that year, as opposed to now that there's 1000s and 10s of 1000s of people creating content at a very high level. So now the barrier of entry is not technology, which it was before. Now its audience and finding that audience. So saltbox is such an interesting concept to me. So please tell me what saltbox is, and how was it born?

Jerry Goehring 10:50
I'll throw that to Patty. Definitely. This was at that very beginning.

Patty Carver 10:54
All right. So when COVID happened, we were shut down. I mean, we and I was completely unemployed. And we decided to, you know, since everyone was going virtual, and I was specifically concerned about the older adult communities that were in my database, because I had like six months sold out. And like everybody called me within 48 hours saying, you know, canceled for the time being, yeah. It was really crazy. And of course, not only that happened, but but Broadway went dark. The West End

Alex Ferrari 11:30
Once a generation, it's like once in a generation. Yeah.

Patty Carver 11:33
Yeah, it was just unbelievable. So we had this idea to film, my one woman musicals that had been doing live and offer them to them as a virtual option to these senior communities in my database and beyond. started calling communities one at a time, it started, it became really clear really fast that people needed more wanted more than just a baddie Garver show. They needed all of these activities, directors and communities were being thrown into this frying pan, this virtual frying pan, many were not tech savvy at all. And they were suddenly I mean, having to, you know, do all this virtual programming. So I went home one night, especially after one conversation, in particular with a, an activities director who was exhausted, they're on quarantine. And she said, I would love to purchase your virtual shows, but I don't have any time in the day. Right now. All I'm doing is bringing food to my residents doors, and arranging facetimes with their families. And, you know, I went home that night, said to Jerry, there should be a channel for senior communities, for older adults, especially now when they're so isolated, and quarantined and away the whole world is, but they are that much more. And so the next day Jerry started, we all we both started calling our theatre colleagues, and Jerry in particular, and started the ball rolling with saltbox. TV. You know, as the first phone call started happening, everybody was saying it was a good idea. But it wasn't just that people really wanted to help us. And in particular, older adults that we were reaching out, that were in the industry wanted to help one because they wanted to help but also because they want to work to to, they want to work. And, you know, it was an it's been an interesting journey. Because we're not just becoming a platform for older adults, in many ways. It's becoming a platform by older adults for older adults. And, you know, the interesting thing that's additionally happened is multi generational thing, or intergenerational thing where, if you're an older adult, you're in your 80s and 90s, and might not be tech savvy, your grin son or granddaughter can help you hop on Roku or firestick and get the free app. But I know I skipped a lot in between there because you know, there were celebrities Jerry that the first celebrity that stepped forward to help us a spokesperson was Ed Asner Bless his heart. Yeah. And, you know, he sort of opened the door to a whole bunch of other people that said, whatever you want to, if you need help, we'll help you. So yeah, and, you know, we hired some gerontologists to help with the structure the website with you know, colors and font sizes. And very early on, we realized that older adults They're not going to go on if they have to log in, or put their email in, or remember a password. Even my mom, who's our biggest fan wouldn't go sign into saltbox if she had to leave her email, so we were like, it has to be click and watch. It has to be free. And it has to be clicking watch. And that's what we are. And so we can very, we can we can say to people, you know, just click and watch and it really is that it's easy.

Alex Ferrari 15:29
So you want so you obviously, you went for a VOD platform and advertising video on demand platform as opposed to a T VOD, or s or subscription based video on demand. Was there a conversation early on to make it instead of making it subscription, making it a VOD, because, you know, a lot of people think that subscription is the key to everything, but from my understanding, and from my experience, and my my knowledge AVOD is where the money's at right now, for filmmakers and for content creators. Because there's no barrier to entry. There's no monthly fee, we are subscribed to death right now. There's so many subscriptions that we have going on, and being able to just click and watch, especially the generation in a niche audience who's so used to television from like, you know, that's just, oh, it's commercials. Okay. As opposed to, as opposed to 20 year olds. We're going oh, God, commercials. And I'm like, You think commercials are bad. Imagine having to wait for that next episode a week later? Yeah, right. Right. Yeah.

Jerry Goehring 16:35
You know, Alex, we actually, in full disclosure, we were when we first started with a summer of what Patty 20s When we really got rockin July of 20. So we've been doing this about 18 months now. So we're like Nunu. We were like, Yeah, I'll pay 499. My first business plan was just changed like 1000 times since then. Was that's fine.

Alex Ferrari 16:54
Sure. Because that's the mentality. Yeah,

Jerry Goehring 16:56
Right. I can see the money. It's easy subscriptions. Yeah, I people, I can market to all that good stuff of capturing information, blah, blah, blah. But then what as Patty mentioned, we learned quickly that this particular audience is not going to do that no credit cards are coming out. So

Patty Carver 17:11
We owe 499, a month for this audience.

Alex Ferrari 17:13
No, in that's the thing that's so fascinating about you. Because you know, when you talk about it, I noticed a few certain few key terms there that were very insightful, which are that you were looking at font sizes, you were looking at color schemes, you were doing a deep dive into your audience and really providing value to that audience where so many filmmakers or even businesses, they'll just launch without even thinking about their audience. They'll even they'll write a story. I mean, the same thing goes in theater. I mean, I'm assuming he's a you don't just throw up, hey, let's go put on a show. Let's go spend, you know, obscene amount of money. Let's go put on a show. And hopefully someone will show up there is there was really a good amount of thought put into I mean, even hiring those specialists to come in and and guide you on that it's really very straight very forward thinking.

Patty Carver 18:03
And you know, what, Alex, this audience that we're talking about, we're talking about it with, as if they're a niche audience, but they're huge.

Alex Ferrari 18:16
They're huge, nice. They're huge.

Patty Carver 18:20
And they're, I mean, as far as Geryon are concerned, and they're a neglected demographic in so many ways, and dismissed in so many ways. And, you know, they deserve a font that they can read.

Alex Ferrari 18:36
And also, I mean, they deserve also content that they could that that they're going to connect with, because I mean, look how many look, everyone's not going to be 20 and 30 years old for the rest of their lives. But according to Hollywood, that's what we see. You know, and I'm, I'm not 20 or 30 anymore, in a case, and now it's a lot better than it was 1015 years ago, now. We're seeing multi generational stories, stories for women, women that are not 20 You know, these kinds of things. And I think that, you know, the smartest, the smartest business people always look for the neglected audience that neglected customer underserved. And that's when when this came across my desk, I was like, okay, these guys got it. And I'm like, I can't believe no one thought of this. And then I went to your Santa Ed Asner, who, by the way, I had a short meeting with on a set one day, I was visiting a friend shooting film and I met him. He was the sweetest man. And he was like, he was busting my balls within the first five seconds of meeting him and he was, oh my god, he was so great. He is so so great. But having someone when I saw it as I'm like, okay, these guys get it. They got it. They understand who their audiences. Look at their spokesperson, look at the way the health thing is set up. It was really well. Well, well put together.

Jerry Goehring 19:52
Thank you. We learned a lot as we looked at content, you know, and we learned a lot of times we were completely 100 100 180 degrees wrong. And what we thought as an example, if you go to the site, you'll see that we have, we have cultivated content. So it's always a one stop shop. Yeah, you can get classic movie and TVs, you can also get lifelong learning and be wiped if you're somebody in your family has dementia, there's all kinds of programming to how do you deal with that? How do you Oh, there's all the way to chair yoga for older people. But what here's what I learned is that, as I mentioned, the very beginning, we love young artists, we love new, we new love creep young creators, so we automatically don't go for, you know, the huge blockbusters, we can't afford them anyway. We go for the for the artists that are looking that had this great piece of content, be it you know, 30 years old, or brand new, that come and we put them on our site, we since we're Avon, we do a revenue share deal. So everybody's in the same pod, very standard. But what we learned, I thought people would come because they want to learn about they want to do exercise, want to learn about dementia care, whatever. And then they would stick around and see all all this great entertainment. It's actually the other way around, is everybody wants to get be entertained. And then they're like, Hey, wait a minute, you have this also for my community or for a house. And it just goes to prove that even though you may be 75, you still love the same things you did when you were 25?

Alex Ferrari 21:18
Oh, there's no question. I mean, I would have to ask you. So right now, your current demographic was raised on the Andy Griffith Show. And in Sanford sun and the you know, and I Love Lucy, and those kinds of those things. So when Generation X, which is my generation gets to, is saltbox going to move with it? Is it you know, is there going to be a Gen X, you know, channel, that's which I should create one right now, because I would love to watch a Gen X channel of things just in the 80s 90s. But it's still, there's still plenty of it out there. But like, but you know what I mean? So is it going to be moving along with, you know, the, as far as the generation and the audience because the audience will change? Because I I know of Andy Griffith, I watched it when I was very, very young, but it's not a show that I'm gonna go watch. But if you throw on, you know, different strokes or friends or, you know, a team or night writer, those are the those are the shows that I grew up with. So is that something that you're thinking about as, as your population starts to change as your audience starts to change?

Patty Carver 22:21
Wow, I hope we have that. I hope we have this problem.

Alex Ferrari 22:28
Like, oh, God, it's just too much money.

Jerry Goehring 22:31
You know, what we talk a lot about athletes is, is the term aging up, right? Because even if you look at 65, plus now, what 65 year old and 95 year old, have different entertainment expectations, and even kind of community learning opportunities that that they need. Now, that generation, let's look at 75 and Plus are maybe not as tech savvy as perhaps a 50 year old is, but at the same time, there's a lot of smart 75 year olds out there. So there's we're already in a mixed group of people and their abilities and access to online streaming. So right there, we thought we can tell you where our niche challenges are. That's where they are. Now you look 10 years down the road, that's gonna start to change all the people like Patti and I, we just cut the cord a year ago, we're still kind of dealing with all that we can't just turn on, you know what we want. We're used to it. But in other 10 years, people are like, I cannot believe I described subscribe to a cable channel. How archaic is that? So we are not only thinking about that, but we're actually thinking right now, with our multiple mixed ages and our audience that we're reaching to how do we age up and then look back to the Gen X to the the 50 year olds like us? And how does all that mix together so we can have a business plan that can go forward?

Alex Ferrari 23:48
Yeah, and that's, I mean, I cut the cord, probably about five years ago, probably I cut the cord. And, and then I've never looked back. And every time I move or something, of course, I got to talk to the cable guy. Well, you know, we could do this. I'm like, Dude, if you need to just stop. Or I had DirecTV forever, and they're just like, Well, why don't we uh, we could give you the sweet deal. Like, there's no sweet deal, dude, it's over. I'm probably paid the exact same thing. If not probably more with all my subscriptions on on the apps, there's no question but the ease of use the technology of being able to record everything all the time and have access to all of it at all times, is something that is just priceless in the world. But now, how did you guys develop the technology? Did you use it? You know, are you did you develop it yourself? Did you work partners?

Jerry Goehring 24:38
Uh, yeah, we reached out and made some partnerships with some of my friends in Broadway. So there are some Broadway streaming services out there. We've been friends for a long, long time. So we kind of went in and shared the cost on coders and you know, kind of build it from the ground up. So this is not a template format. As Betty mentioned, we wanted to make sure that we could have a viewer could change the size of font if they need to see you later. You can go on on the homepage and change the size of the font. You can do colors, all that stuff that we worked on all that had to be put into, from from day one. So yeah, we basically are all about partnerships in our world right now.

Alex Ferrari 25:13
I know that I know the feeling. And partnerships are much more affordable than cash out out of pocket.

Jerry Goehring 25:21
Everybody wins. You know, we all bring our, you know, air in front and makes filmmakers and TV makers out there. They're, they're bringing projects to us, because there's a need for all of us. We need great content from artists, and creators. And these artists and creators need as many just distribution channels as they can get.

Alex Ferrari 25:38
There was a filmmaker story, I heard that they directed a documentary about sanitarians, who were at the Olympics, like the Olympics Antarian that, you know, the that that was something like, yeah, yeah. And they, they, they tried to do the normal thing, and it just didn't work. So they will actually went out to these communities, and toured and toured and sold licenses. And they made over a million dollars. Just just like it went to I think they went to a convention. And you guys probably know that convention where all the they all get together to buy content. Right, exactly. So they went in, and they said that in the first, that weekend, they sold $380,000 worth of licenses, just because because there's such a lack for this demographic for this, this niche audience. And it's not like I think we say niche, but we're talking about, you know, 65 and older, there's a few of them. The baby boomer generation is you know,

Jerry Goehring 26:42
Yeah, no, is totally the largest demographic in this country. All those all those baby boomers are over 55. Now, and, and that's it. I mean, we talked about advertisers Guess who has the most disposable income, baby boomers over 55.

Alex Ferrari 26:56
I know, it's and that's why 499 should have made sense. But it didn't.

Jerry Goehring 27:04
You know, what, what's very interesting to me, is that as we look at at to the financial landscape of all of this, that Hollywood does truly, truly focus on the young person. And I get that our kids are in their mid 20s. And they're, you know, they're they do their thing. But there is such not only a market for the for the content, but there is a very huge potential market for artists to be seen by millions to make money from that, and revenue share deals to find a new way to get product out. And to get all these amazing stories that are being told at a high quality and you brought up Alex, there is opportunities out there being created all the time, like saltbox. TV.

Alex Ferrari 27:44
Yeah. And I mean, I was just shocked that no one had thought of this, and no one had done it the way the you guys are doing it. And you obviously considered the technology barriers for your audience, you you you are very well aware that they are not I mean, if if my parents are any indication, they, they I mean, texting was a thing. You know, and like, email was a thing. And God forbid, my father's like, next time you come over, I need you to set up Apple TV, because it sounds really good. But I it because I he loves it when he comes over to my place. And he's like, wait a minute, I watch baseball all day. And like, yes, you can't how much? Is it? What, um, you know, like, but there's that technology barrier. So you guys really thought about that. And again, you know, filmmakers listening now thinking about your niche audience. I mean, obviously, we're talking about a streaming service, which is different than a piece of content. But concepts are still the same. Thinking about your audience and thinking how you can get your product to them. How it can serve them is something that should be upfront, when you're thinking about this. Do you agree?

Jerry Goehring 28:55
No question. I'll give you one less example. I see. Patti wanted to add to that. But when we first started, we said we're gonna take our first two years, and we're still have like six months left. And we're not going to worry about advertisers right? Now let's build our base, we'll just get some investors. And we'll just pay for this the old fashioned way, right. And then we're still doing that. What we did, what we wanted to do is get into these markets so we could actually get real feedback and build our base. So what we started with your point to get to senior communities where they all live together in a community, and they are all in service with content from one provider, and there's a many providers out there. Like right now we're in over 5000 communities nationwide, and each community has two to 250 people in it. Because they we know they can actually watch us because of the technology in those communities. And of course, we did OTT platforms and all that, but that's going to take a while be patient for that to grow to eight people to age into that. So you hit it right on the head. It's about technology and finding the lowest common denominator. How do you get this to them?

Alex Ferrari 29:58
Now how did you What is the marketing plan for this? Because I'm assuming you don't have the $200 million for marketing that universal does for their next Fast and Furious thing. So how I mean, obviously, you had a database, and you knew this audience very well. So I'm assuming that's what you tapped first. But beyond that list, and beyond those original context, how are you planning to reach that audience? What are you doing with that?

Patty Carver 30:22
Well, we're talking to you.

Alex Ferrari 30:25
Well, I'm not sure my demographic is going to be going into salt box. But hey, listen, I have no idea who listens to me sometimes. But, but other how other ways are you doing it?

Patty Carver 30:39
Well, I just have to say, we're doing any, you know, marketing press opportunities that we can at the moment. And we're doing that all the way to giving up postcards, one person at a time, I'm actually doing that going to communities, live gigs are happening again. And I've been to, you know, I go to lots of communities again, which thank goodness, and I'm getting way up, I'm sorry. No, no, no. I'm just kind of just saying that we're really it's a big array of things right now a great big puzzle of different marketing puzzle pieces right now.

Jerry Goehring 31:17
But that's the partnerships for a second, Alex, let's think about, we're not the only ones out there that want to get content to this audience. They want to bring this audience in, right. And so the streamers of various sizes from a tiny new place like us all the way up the chain, are looking for partnerships are looking how to share content, looking at fast channels, looking at linear looking at different ways to get out. I think, ultimately, that's the answer. You're right. We don't have 200 million or two USA Today, ads, and AARP ads and all this stuff that costs so much money, we are going to continue partnering and with other like minded streamers, not only to get our content out, but to also create content together, we're in multiple deals now in pre production to start creating our own content, bringing all of those people together, and telling stories and filming and creating. And we are not doing it by ourselves by any means. And so honestly, that's the truth. That's how we're getting the word out because there's a need, and other people are seeing it too, that have a much have many more eyeballs than we do and a much broader reach than we do. And the same need.

Patty Carver 32:21
Yeah, one of the one of the ways we when we first started gathering content when we first began this, you know, the obvious is movies and sitcoms and documentaries. But we also went surfing YouTube, and finding content providers with big followings. And we just reached out to them, we just got on the phone and found them. And we ended up in some really wonderful partnerships with for instance, tip us know who's like the rock star of, of dementia care. There's a guy and she has hundreds of 1000s of followers on YouTube. And you know, it's a win win, because people see her on saltbox, that directs them back to her site. And it just, it benefits everyone. There's a guy named Greg Pickens who has a show called Finding America, he travels, he travels across the country, with his metal detector. And he digs and he finds these treasures. And he's got a huge following. And he has recently joined us and, you know, we have like 10 of his programs on saltbox. And when you go to salt bucks, you're also directed back to his channel. And, you know, we have that type of partnership with so many content providers, who, especially at the beginning, really kind of took a leap of faith in this new this new company called saltbox that wanted to, you know, do a 5050 Revenue Share, and, you know, partner with us to air their content.

Alex Ferrari 33:54
And that's the thing that I that's interesting about your specific audience is that you can't buy Facebook ads. You can't buy, you know, YouTube ads, you can't do traditional even content marketing is not something that your audience, you know, is not looking on YouTube, or looking on for articles about things generally speaking, I mean, obviously, it's different, but generally speaking, so I think the for the lesson for filmmakers listening is that you are going at the at the at the street level, and partnering with other audiences, which is something I talked about in my book, you go where the audience is, you partner with those people and then try to tap into that audience and try to provide service to them and they provide service to you. And that's much more powerful. I think then Facebook ads, if you if you're able to partner with someone in your niche who's a rockstar in your niche, that's so much more powerful than spending $100,000 on Facebook ads and hoping that someone will click on it. Is that fair?

Patty Carver 34:53
And they bring the passion to that they we had the same mission.

Alex Ferrari 34:58
Right

Jerry Goehring 34:58
Yeah. And what's interesting too Here's what we're discovering on the aging up topic. And this marketing is that, like you had mentioned, your, your parents had enough parents are the same way, maybe a little older than yours. But the same ideas that we're finding that those older adults that truly maybe get a little lost in all of this. The kids or the grandkids are under our understanding that and they want to help their parents or grandparents to be more connected, and then starts connecting families, Mrs. Getting called kind of heartfelt now that we're seeing that happen, we're seeing, honestly a marketing opportunity we didn't anticipate, which is our kids and grandkids helping older adults have access to this content.

Alex Ferrari 35:38
You know, it's so funny that some of the content that is is aimed at your demographic, let's say a show like The Golden Girls, which is a show that I watch, but then Millennials love. And I was I was watching it. I was watching a show like that in the 80s when I was a teenager, I was like I love The Golden Girls like that's one of those shows that like Connor that just jumps through generations. So it's it's really interesting.

Patty Carver 36:07
It's a good story, and it's well done. Everybody loves it.

Jerry Goehring 36:10
Yeah. Look at Grayson Frankie right now. Oh, guess who's watching it.

Alex Ferrari 36:15
Oh, god. Yeah, it's I can't I mean, yeah, I upset I'm obsessed with Grayson, Frankie. I mean, I'm obsessed. My wife and I started watching it. We're like, we are obsessed with this show. Lily Tom and I just hope before the series ends, that Dolly Parton just makes a cameo, please just please bring dolly in. Please. Please, please.

Jerry Goehring 36:38
We agree. Go Dolly.

Alex Ferrari 36:40
Yes, exactly.

Patty Carver 36:43
Now, how do you not I just got word that Dolly Parton is going to make a cameo on the last episode. Okay, have a Achille here.

Alex Ferrari 36:52
Okay.

Jerry Goehring 36:55
We're all learning this together, Alex.

Alex Ferrari 36:56
Well, you heard it here. First everybody Dolly Parton is gonna be on the last episode of grace of Frankie. Well, yeah, there's only a handful of there's a there's only a handful of episodes left and I'm sad but it by nose. And going off topic just for a second. There's no reason why Grace and Frankie should have succeeded in a platform like Netflix. For as long it's like the longest running series in Netflix history like has the most seasons of shows to my knowledge. I mean, even said, yeah, there's there's no other show. I think even Orange is the New Black stop that five or six. So that that it's that makes no sense. Like on paper, this makes no sense. But when you watch it, you're just like, Okay, this this is good. It's just as good writing good performing. I mean, it's, it's amazing. And a question I have to ask you as well with the the A VOD platform, how do you get advertisers? Because that's always a big problem with with with a VOD platforms unless you're tap into one of the big boys like a to b or something like that. How did you bring advertisers in? And how do you you know, get as much as you can tell me, I don't want to get any proprietary stuff out?

Jerry Goehring 38:07
No, I'll give you heads because we had to learn this again, theater people, we don't go out and get commercials, you know. So learn, learn how to do it. So here's here's what I learned a lot about programmatic advertising, and learning how that works in the digital world. And you know, our site right now has no advertising on it, it will start July 1. So we're still just self funding this whole thing. But we are now working with programmatic advertising firms out there that do this work. And then we are coding their their work into our our underbelly, you know, so all of our platform will have full systematic integration of programmatic advertising. So then we do the revenue share, and they're a part of that. But then our goal is over the next five years to start phasing that out having our own sales staff having our own nobody kind of phasing that out. But right now, there's resources out there, because everybody sees this burgeoning streaming market exploding. And there are advertisers that want a specific audience in a specific area, that country of a specific age, oh, programmatic advertising gives that to you.

Alex Ferrari 39:16
Perfect. Yeah. And it's, I mean, I get it through podcasting right now. So as you're listening to this podcast, I've heard that there's been ads that have been local to that specific area that they're listening to the podcast. And as opposed to I mean, there's some general market stuff like a McDonald's or a Honda or something like that. But many times it's local advertising. And I found out when I moved from Los Angeles, to Austin, my ads, I start hearing Austin, local Austin ads, when I'm listening to my, my own show, to test it. I'm like, Oh, okay. So even then, through my through my, my provider, it does that too. So I think we're still getting we're still in it's in the infancy of AVOD very much So very much the infancy of a VOD, and it's getting better and better. But we'll get to the point where, like anyone almost I can't say anyone can get an S VOD going because it's not does take a little bit of there is a barrier to entry to that. But generally speaking, it can still be done where five to eight years ago, if I said I'm going to if you guys said I'm going to open up saltbox it would have been the technology would have been a major hurdle on cost and putting it all out there and everything like that. So yeah, that's that's it. There's, there's a will there's a way without question

Jerry Goehring 40:34
That our our ignorance has paid off, because I don't know how how to do it. So I just do it.

Patty Carver 40:40
Really, it's not and this this programmatic advertising is not my world at all. And I just, I just look at it as this magical thing where you know, that the right advertisements appear before and after, and it's all good.

Alex Ferrari 40:58
Right, and it's all tacked in, and then some, some Gremlins, some sort of Gremlins inside the computer, do it for you. And that's it, little elves or something. And that's it, and then check shows up, it's just fantastic. Um, so it's kind of like residual payments for television or films, like all of a sudden, like, if someone's doing something someone's tracking something, I get a check. It's fine. It's nice. Now what's in your so where do you see the saltbox? In the next 5 10 years?

Jerry Goehring 41:32
I'll take that. Should I start?

Patty Carver 41:34
Well, you know, I, I see it growing. I mean, I we're gathering momentum, I see it growing. And what I'm most excited about is the opportunities that are happening for our in house productions. I want stories by soapbox, TV, that right? On the horizon for us.

Alex Ferrari 41:59
I mean, Netflix figured that out a little bit ago. Yeah.

Jerry Goehring 42:04
I mean, there's only so many I Love Lucy, as you can put up and people will come we need destination content, to be quite honest, we need to go we're used to creating our own shows from scratch on Broadway. So now we're working with the same and more artists from a different field from electronic media. And we're meeting new people every day. So those listening, feel free to reach out, you know, look at this all but we're look we're looking for always to partnerships and content. I think my main goal is to continue cultivating the content for this aging up audience. I mean, right now, in a year and a half, with really no experience doing this, we have almost 400 pieces of content up right now. And more and some have multiple episodes, we're talking well over 1000 pieces that are on our site right now. And we are just now starting to produce our own and work with other production companies to make that happen. So yeah, let's see where it goes.

Patty Carver 42:57
I want to add to that, Jerry? Um, so yes, it's, it's going to grow, it's going to be great. And I'm so excited about all the possibilities to produce softbox productions. But for me, also, the mission will always be to be a resource for communities. soapbox TV started out as a as a resource for communities. And of course, there's such a broader market out there. But that will always be something that's extremely important to me to reach those activity directors and communities that can use saltbox for any number of reasons.

Alex Ferrari 43:39
And, and there's a lesson there for filmmakers to listen to is is is always think about your audience, and not about the money. Now, if you're when you're making movies, and you're being a filmmaker, yeah, you've got to do you have to be financially responsible. But if you don't lead with being of service to the audience, whatever that story might be, look, Marvel does it probably better than anyone else? Disney does it probably better than anyone else, whether you like or hate their films, they're doing it a pretty high level, and they're reaching their audience and they're paying off their audience. It's paying off for their audience. I still remember watching Avengers endgame. And after 10 years of stories, ending with that story, how it just brought the entire audience together and I'm their audience. So it might not be someone else but it but what they did is they did think about how to really touched their audience in a way that a lot of Hollywood productions and a lot of filmmakers don't think about, think about what's hot, like you know what's hot right now salt, like Asian Americans, yes. And if that's that's where the money is, we got to throw things in there. But if there's no heart behind it, it will fail. I feel

Patty Carver 44:46
Right.

Jerry Goehring 44:49
Agree. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 44:51
Now I'm going to ask you a few questions. Ask all my guests. What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the entertainment industry or in life?

Jerry Goehring 45:02
Oh, woof. Pat, do you have to go first now? Oh my goodness. Alright. So from the heart on this one is that someday we're all going to be at that moment where we're no longer here, right? You're gonna have a little time to look back and think, you know, you can think of the things first you want to think about the family, your friends, all of that, and then think, can I make a difference? What did I do to help people? What did I do to take what little skills I have, in this case bringing artists together? And did I make a difference? Did I help somebody with what I did? Or was it all just self absorbed, make money, a lot of the story, I'm just determined to make it for other reasons. I learned that as soon as I have a project that is driven like that is driven by an investor or a partnership, that is only seeking the return. That's when it fails. And if there's not somebody that at the top, that trickles down with passion and artistic integrity, and a reason for doing it, that is not worth doing. We've learned that multiple times through the years and we get keep getting reminded that. So there you go.

Alex Ferrari 46:23
That's a great lesson. Great, great lesson. How about you Patty.

Patty Carver 46:29
Mine short and sweet I think always be willing to change the plans. Because the best laid plans are good. Always gonna be a good one. Yep.

Alex Ferrari 46:44
So you made it. So you need to tell me that things don't go as planned in life. Is that Is that what you're saying? Cuz I, I mean, everything I've ever planned. It came out perfect. I don't know what you're talking about. Oh, come here. Oh, my God, when you're young, you think Oh my God. And when you're younger, you think that everything that you're planning is exactly, it's gonna it never happens, exactly how you plan it. And most most of the times even when it's it's bad. In hindsight, it was good. I've always found that even the worst things have happened to you in life, somehow is something that needed to happen or, or, or was meant for some sort of good and I know that's hard to accept sometimes for people because I went through some I got shrapnel. I've got a lot of shrapnel, and I'm sure you guys have shrapnel as well in the in the business? Yes. Not easy. Not easy at all. Now, um, what is the? What did you learn from your biggest failures, artistic or business wise?

Jerry Goehring 47:48
From saltbox, or in life?

Alex Ferrari 47:50
In life? Well, saltbox is still there. So I'm assuming we're still good. Well, let me rephrase that question. What was the biggest lesson you've learned so far from launching saltbox?

Jerry Goehring 48:03
I'll tackle that first is that you get pitched by so many people, and so many people that have decades of experience in this business. And they only see it one way, you have to do it this way. We've always done it this way. It's how Hollywood works. Know how Hollywood works. So when I come in and say, here's how I do that, here's how I'm going to do this. And the lesson I learned from that, because we tried stuff the Hollywood way a couple times. And you know what, it was a miserable failure.

Alex Ferrari 48:32
Mm hmm. Shocking, shocking.

Jerry Goehring 48:34
I know what I'm just gonna kind of do what I know. And do it the way I know how to do it. And if it's not your cup of tea, then Thanks for calling.

Alex Ferrari 48:44
Very good answer. Very good answer. You want to add anything Patty?

Patty Carver 48:48
Um, yeah, what I've learned through soapbox right now is that I have to say, you know, when we started it, it's a great idea. But you know, not, you know, there are so many great ideas out there. What I've learned is that, yes, we can do this. Because we it could because we were a couple of theater people that just dove off a cliff into this new media. And really, and Jerry talks about, you know, ignorance is bliss. It really is true, because ignorance is bliss. And it allows you to pick up the phone and, you know, call somebody that, you know, you know, you wouldn't otherwise. And actually I tell the team here sometimes, if we have an interview, don't tell me too much about this because I don't want to I just want to go talk. I just don't I don't want to know. Anyway, but I also and this kind of piggybacks off of what Jerry was saying. I go with my gut, my intuitive feelings about things and from the get go, I've also been saying that I have just a really good feeling about this. You know, coming into the office and you know, and just day to day stuff and finding a balance.

Alex Ferrari 50:07
That's great. I mean, I was I was completely agree when I picked up a microphone six and a half years ago it started a podcast. I didn't think I would be here that's for sure. My best laid plans were not this and it's so much better than what I ever thought of. So it's been I've been blessed in that sense So ignorance many times is bliss. And last question, guys, three of your favorite films of all time.

Jerry Goehring 50:30
Three Oh my goodness. Okay, Patty. You go first on this one,

Alex Ferrari 50:34
Whatever comes to mind

Patty Carver 50:35
That can can we go back and forth?

Jerry Goehring 50:37
Oh, sure.

Patty Carver 50:40
All right. I like Shawshank Redemption.

Alex Ferrari 50:43
That's my number one. Thank you so much. It's it's it's it's the it's it's the best one of the best written scripts ever and one of the best movies ever and I can watch it a million times and sorry, everyone, everyone who's listening knows my love for Shawshank.

Jerry Goehring 50:58
I know we'd love to work with Morgan Freeman. Just putting that out there.

Patty Carver 51:03
Jerry your turn.

Jerry Goehring 51:05
All right. I've got to say love Scorsese. So I'm going to go with that's a good skirt, the Goodfellas.

Alex Ferrari 51:14
Goodfellas good film can't complain.

Patty Carver 51:18
Silence of the lambs.

Alex Ferrari 51:20
Wow. As you hear the nice kind voice silence of the it's like it doesn't it doesn't connect. It doesn't connect. But also, that's it felt like that wasn't that I didn't think that was gonna come out of your out of your lips. There was a nice,

Jerry Goehring 51:38
She's a tough one. Not me. See. I like Silver Linings Playbook. So you know,

Alex Ferrari 51:41
there you go. That That makes sense. And this next is going to go Texas Chainsaw Massacre. I think that it's a fantastic

Patty Carver 51:54
You know, I have just musicals in general. But I think my favorite musical because I have to include a musical. You know hairspray.

Alex Ferrari 52:08
Oh, nice. Nice. That's a fun movie. That is a fun movie. And last but not least,

Patty Carver 52:14
One more, Jerry.

Jerry Goehring 52:15
All right. I'm thinking I'm thinking, you know, since we're almost in that season, I'm going to say the one that I end up being only one of the house watching most of the time is It's a Wonderful Life.

Alex Ferrari 52:26
Oh, it's a fantastical I mean, not as good as diehard, which is obviously the best Christmas movie of all time. But No, I'm joking. Story, of course, obviously a Christmas story. But I've had I've had multiple conversations on how diehard is a Christmas movie. And it it we actually did the numbers we did research it actually is. It has more Christmas references that home alone does. Oh, you know, for like we did. There's a whole episode I'm going to really I'll probably release it for Christmas movie Jerry. And we actually talked to John McTiernan and to the writer. And both of them said, Well, yeah, it's a Christmas movie now. I love it. That's so great. Jerry, it has been an absolute pleasure talking to you guys. Thank you so much, much success with saltbox. And I hope the audience picks up a little couple of nuggets on how to approach niche audiences and how they can create projects and sell things to a niche audience. It is a very powerful idea and needs to be put out there more but I do appreciate what you're doing. So thank you so much.

Jerry Goehring 53:33
Thanks for having us, Alex.

Patty Carver 53:34
Thank you Alex

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IFH 536: How to Production Design for Ridley Scott with Oscar® Winner Janty Yates

Janty Yates costumer designer

Today on the show we have Oscars® winning costume designer Janty Yates.

Janty Yates has had a collaborative relationship with Ridley Scott since the great success of Gladiator in 2000, for which she won an Academy Award®, one of the eight Oscars® garnered by the film.

She was also nominated for a BAFTA, a Golden Satellite and a Saturn Award. She has also had CDG nominations for De-lovely and for The Martian, a Golden Satellite nomination for De-lovely and a Goya nomination for Kingdom of Heaven.

Yates is a frequent collaborator with Scott, having worked on thirteen films with him in addition to Gladiator, including: Hannibal (2001); Kingdom of Heaven (2005); American Gangster (2007); Body of Lies (2008); Robin Hood (2010), for which she received a Saturn Award nomination and her fourth Satellite Award nomination; Prometheus (2012), Exodus: Gods and Kings (2014),  and The Martian (2015). Her most recent films with Scott include the epic historical drama film The Last Duel and the biographical crime drama film House of Gucci, both released in 2021.

The historical epic is a cinematic and thought-provoking drama set in the midst of the Hundred Years War that explores the ubiquitous power of men, the frailty of justice and the strength and courage of one woman willing to stand alone in the service of truth. Based on actual events, the film unravels long-held assumptions about France’s last sanctioned duel between Jean de Carrouges and Jacques Le Gris, two friends turned bitter rivals.

Carrouges is a respected knight known for his bravery and skill on the battlefield. Le Gris is a Norman squire whose intelligence and eloquence make him one of the most admired nobles in court. When Carrouges’ wife, Marguerite, is viciously assaulted by Le Gris, a charge he denies, she refuses to stay silent, stepping forward to accuse her attacker, an act of bravery and defiance that puts her life in jeopardy.

The ensuing trial by combat, a grueling duel to the death, places the fate of all three in God’s hands. The film is based on Eric Jager’s book “The Last Duel: A True Story of Crime, Scandal, and Trial by Combat in Medieval France.”

It is produced and directed by Ridley Scott, Kevin J. Walsh (“Manchester by the Sea”), Jennifer Fox (“Nightcrawler”), Nicole Holofcener, Matt Damon, Ben Affleck with Kevin Halloran (“Ford v Ferrari”), Drew Vinton (“Promised Land”), Madison Ainley (“Justice League”) serving as executive producers.

You can watch The Last Duel through popular video-on-demand (VOD) retailers like Amazon Prime Video, Vudu, Apple TV (iTunes), Microsoft Movies, and YouTube.

Enjoy my conversation with Janty Yates. 

Right-click here to download the MP3

Alex Ferrari 0:00
This episode is brought to you by Indie Film Hustle Academy, where filmmakers and screenwriters go to learn from Top Hollywood Industry Professionals. Learn more at ifhacademy.com. I'd like to welcome to the show Janty Yates, How are you doing Janty?

Janty Yates 0:15
Hi, how nice of you to invite me. I'm very honored.

Alex Ferrari 0:19
Thank you. I'm honored to have you on the show. As I was telling you earlier, I think you are the officially first costume designer we've ever had on the show, and a heck of a costume designer. To do that with after almost 500 episodes of the of the of the show. I am I am honored to speak to someone of your caliber, and artistic skill because I've been a fan of your work for a long time. Probably the first the first time, of course, I recognized your name was in Gladiator a few years ago.

Janty Yates 0:54
I'm extremely doubly honored now to find that I'm the first to thank you so much. And thank you so much for your compliments as well.

Alex Ferrari 1:04
So so how did you get started in the business? What made you want to jump into this insanity that is the show business?

Janty Yates 1:12
Oh, hell, yes. I couldn't agree with you more. It really is insane. But I started making clothes when I was like 10 or 11. And I never stopped. And I just went off to college. And I did pattern cutting dress design, dressmaking. And I started off thinking I would break the fashion industry. And that was not going to happen. And I started with wholesale fashion manufacturers. And that was just not my cup of tea. I was not the inspirational Alexander McQueen or John Galliano, I didn't sleep under my cutting table to produce eight perfect outfits, I realized that I didn't have that sort of quality. And also you have to be extremely well funded, unless you do sleep on your cutting table. And so I then was living with an editor, Martin Smith, who basically steered me into the world of commercials. And I knew nobody in commercials. And I was just literally putting myself out there with friends of his and working for no money being an assistants assistant assistant, and just learning one's way around and happy to work just for no money. I do have to say my boyfriend did subsidize me for the first six months, which is pretty nice of him.

Alex Ferrari 2:53
Now, was there a film that kind of lit the flame of you wanting to jump into the future world?

Janty Yates 3:01
Oh, no, listen, I was I could have done commercials all my life, I would have been so happy working with different directors, you know, three or four days or a fortnight or three weeks. I was so gobsmacked when I was offered just a half hour film for television. And that was because the costume designer who was doing it was ill. So it was by default, in fact. And so it just I was clambering up this Dickie scope, I think recall it. Basically, I then did a lot of television, a lot of television series. And then did my first feature in mid 80s. I think that was was probably my budget was really what I'd spend on a good dinner now.

Alex Ferrari 4:08
Times the times have definitely have changed. Yeah, I mean, working in the commercial world, when especially during those years, when there were budgets, like major budgets, that I mean, oh my god, they were massive budgets that you had so much fun. I can only imagine what a department like costume would have with a budget like that even on a commercial.

Janty Yates 4:31
Well, commercials are like mini films. And basically it's like, I want this sky blue pink suit on this man. And we're shooting on Monday, and it's Friday. You know, it's that sort of hairiness and so I was kind of quite glad to leave that behind after X amount. Oh, I've got six weeks to do this film How marvelous films I did

Alex Ferrari 5:05
So when you were working with so can you tell the audience a little bit about what a costume designer does? You know, because I think there is a lot of miscommunication. A lot of misunderstandings about what you actually do?

Janty Yates 5:19
Well, yes, we dress everybody on set, literally, from the socks upwards. And whether it's contemporary, or period, or space, science fiction, we do it from beginning to end, unless it's such a low budget that they've said, the director said, they can come in their own clothes. And then you know, you always, always do all the actors, all the main actors, it's only background that you'd let go on a on a low budget crowd seen that they, you know, and then they'd say, Well do we don't want red, and we don't want yellow. And we don't want primary colors, or we only want red, and yellow, and blue, and primary colors. Usually, they'll say that, when they've all come in beige. But a bigger film, then you get more chance to, to construct, and you have more time to do the research, which could be upwards of a month or six weeks of research. And then basically you start your cutter, and he or she cuts and you make prototypes, then your actor is with you for your first fitting, then you take photos, and the director throws it all out, or doesn't make sense. If you got your brief from your director, so I'm talking, you know, basically, everybody from leads number 12345 and six, right through we have about 185 actors on this film I'm doing at the moment. But they're possibly, you know, just one will be saying nominee parties, you know, and it's one outfit, but they're all all costumed by us. It's responsibility

Alex Ferrari 7:28
Oh, I can I can only imagine. And then it also is all themed. Do you have a whole kind of idea? I mean, obviously, depending on I mean, if it's like in the Martian when you worked on, obviously, there's the Martian costumes, and then there's the back and NASA costumes. So they're not to get but you there is a color theme. There is a general theme throughout throughout the movie itself, because even in some of the I mean, if you look at something like Gladiator, there's definitely a theme within all of the costumes that you've created. Because you could have gone one way or you could have gone another way with with theme of things. So it is all kind of cohesive. If I'm not if I'm not mistaken, correct.

Janty Yates 8:12
We always have basically, we always have a big meeting with the DOP, who at the moment is Doris Wolski, with Arthur Mac's the production designer, and with Ridley, and he will set the tone because he's a painter. And he was at art college for seven years, he went to the Slade and Royal College of Art. And he goes down to his heart at the bottom of the garden a Christmas and he just paints which is wonderful. My whole room is papered with storyboards, which he does ad infinitum on every film so you know exactly what's in his brain. And basically, you have to really go by storyboards because he's got a complete vision, a total vision, and basically no, having said no red, you know, reds, yellows and blues, nothing primary is really he's because he's a painter. He loves. He loves old masters, he loves the feel of a painting. And so it's that you veer to the feel of a master a bridle or you know, a George La Tour, you know, you will you will go to that direction, rather than just here it is the red dress or you know, here it is the blue dress. So, a lot of it is guided by Ridley we just talk along.

Alex Ferrari 9:56
Now, how did you meet Ridley Scott and how did you guys become The collaborators that you've had, because you've done a couple movies with him at this point,

Janty Yates 10:03
One or two, only as good as your last movie, so never assume. Never, ever assume, frankly, you know, I basically was doing a film with his son called Plunkett and McLean, which we thought was the most fabulous movie, and I still believe it is the most fabulous movie. And he come in, and he says, Oh, my dad was watching rushes the weekend, when I've had a huge hero worship of Sir Ridley Scott for decades, and decades, decades, and I guess I'm sure he's not, you know, I never really believed Jake. And because there was, you know, he was in LA and Jake, and we were all shooting in Prague. I thought, Oh, sure. He hasn't seen them. You know, this was back in 98. However, he did, and he he stole from Jake, the makeup artist. Me the Steadicam operator, and the second second second unit director. So there off the top was it Jake is a great commercial Jake is a very, very lovely and very creative guy. And he never minded he wasn't making movie after movie like as well there was he was quite happy

Alex Ferrari 11:34
So that's so that's how you guys got together. And it was was your first collaboration with Ridley Gladiator?

Janty Yates 11:43
Oh, no.

Alex Ferrari 11:45
You did that. You did a couple movies before that, right?

Janty Yates 11:48
No, no. No. Why me? You know, how blessed was I? It was it was incredible. You know, just the fact that we were making tunics down to the needs look like Scottish kilts. I was running around the helmets that we had. I was making sure that the brims are they're not they're actually hit blockers that they were on the end on the edge of the helmet to look like a baseball cap, right. And they just really trying to make them look cool. Rather than you know, if you look at Trojans column, which is the best place for research actually just standing in front of this column, it has acres of legionaries just marching round it all carved beautifully. And they all have short skirts they all had. They just didn't really it didn't really work. So we just cheated a little bit on their on their legionary uniforms.

Alex Ferrari 12:54
I mean, because I'm in that film alone, you had I mean, between the iconic now Gladiator. You had these multiple gladiator characters who had a very distinct look like that silver with the the Teardrop of Oh, my God. Yeah, all of those amazing costumes. And you also had the legionnaires. And you also so it's like, almost two completely different worlds. And then you have the commoners and the peasants. And this is your first big movie at this point. Correct?

Janty Yates 13:25
Completely. And I really was guided through it by my supervisor, Rosemary Barrows. And, you know, I didn't know where to go. We interviewed so many different specialists effects costume makers, we you know, we luckily, prep was delayed because of some reason I can't remember. But we they grabbed us another month and a half, which was terrific. And we had we had the germ, the barbarians, the Germans, we had the Praetorian Guard to design. And you know, it was very, very exciting. It really was terrifying. I was every single day of that entire prep and shoot, it was terrifying.

Alex Ferrari 14:12
How do you how do you research a project? Like where do you find your inspiration for the individuals like from I mean, if something from like the gladiator to the Martian, like there said that's such an alien. There's so many different or brief Prometheus. There's so many there's so different. Where do you go to find inspiration per project, and how do you what's your process?

Janty Yates 14:35
In Gladiator you just walk around Rome, you know, because every single statue is either a legionary or it's Caesar. Or it's, you know, Augustus It's extraordinary. Obviously, books, huge amount of books, Ridley came up with the most wonderful inspiration For the crowd you wanted ALMA to Deema. Who painted? He was a late 19th. No, sorry, late. He was 19 Eight, not nine today to 1880 to 1910. He painted wonderful Roman scenes. And we used a lot of his paintings as inspiration. Obviously the British Museum, the Ashmolean Museum, just museums that go go libraries, and artists, and roam, and then really the Martian. Ridley, briefed me that he wanted similar to Prometheus for Prometheus. He'd said, We want skinny suits, we want them to be body hugging. And we were ahead of the curve there. We, you know, there's been a lot of movies since which have nicked our ideas. But the great thing about The Martian spacesuit was that really, it was Ridley again, who just said, I want orange in it. I want it to be silver and orange, or gray and orange. So we just worked with that. And we just worked worked. And we added and we took away. And it was, you know, a whole host of trial and error until we came up with it. And the the helmets on Prometheus, they were a work of art, they had a seat recording for sound. We lit the actors, and we had 11 monitors with tech running on them constantly. Batteries at gogo just drove everyone mad replacing the batteries. And obviously they had to breathe. So we had to, you know, pump air into their, into their helmets, and also for not fogging up. So we were doing a lot of, you know, really quite broken ground. Excuse me ground breaking work on on this. Now maybe they did all CGI, but CGI was around. We just did it.

Alex Ferrari 17:19
Practical is practical. You know, there's something about practical human human beings can feel it. It's enhancing with visual effects, even in clothing, where there's capes and things like that and other things that they do in visual effects that can maybe add to but even then, you can't replicate. Even with as much amazing technologies we have today. It's hard to replicate reality.

Janty Yates 17:45
Yeah, and all these capes are usually on fishing wire.

Alex Ferrari 17:51
Right, exactly. Exactly.

Janty Yates 17:53
Two main I decide. I should screen obviously. pulling, pulling wondering exactly.

Alex Ferrari 18:03
Not none the most. That what you think about? Yeah, not what you think about you're like, oh, there's must be something high tech. It's fishing wire. It's fishing wire in a dude in the corner polling to generally generally to now. So you've worked with Ridley for for, you know, for the better part of two decades. Now. What is his approach to costume design? How does he approach? I mean, because we know he has a vision. I mean, all his films are so visual, and he does storyboard. He is an artist, a painter? How does he specifically approach the costuming of his characters within within the conflicts? Let's say the last duel is one of his latest films. How did he approach that?

Janty Yates 18:45
Well, he's very visual. He's very visual indeed. And he, he is a huge collaborator. And he will, you know, he will come up with ideas. He was the one that found the most wonderful effigy, which was still the front of his CQRS to make Adams battle armor. In actual fact, Adams battle armor, he just punches around in he doesn't really do much battling he's just, you know, it's just a peers. right hand man. And he, it was wonderful. It was gold circles on each breast and a gold circle in the middle of the grass. And really found that and so we went with it. You know, I basically I'm just a facilitator.

Alex Ferrari 19:42
There. Yeah. And it just basically, whatever really comes up with you're like, okay, and obviously it's a collaboration you're he's asking you for your ideas and your input, obviously, and how to put it all together. But I mean, imagining I mean, working with someone like Ridley Scott who is so specific, yeah, about his vision. During but there's still obviously room for collaboration. I mean, you obviously are throwing ideas at him. He's either batting them away or or agreeing with him.

Janty Yates 20:09
Absolutely. And, you know, we we do go backwards and forwards. But he, for example, he's done every single scene in this film that we're collaborating on at the moment in a store in a storyboard, and I noticed that he had Josephine, because we're doing Napolean in a red dress in a red setting. And so I questioned him on that. And he said, Yes, he wanted a red dress. Well, we were doing Josephine different colorway, but we made him the red dress. And that's fantastic. So, you know, you can never really tell, but basically, his storyboards are the Bible. They really are. But we always we always get together and work out the colors. I sat down with Arthur Mac's a week ago, and we went through all the sets. And I mean, we're shooting entirely on location that he always shows me through, says, Well, what do you think? Should we redo the drapes on this bed? And really won't necessarily have any input on that, but he will. You know, he'll comment if the drapes are wrong. And you know, he'll comment in time for them to make new ones. It's same for paste a bed.

Alex Ferrari 21:33
Right! He's, he's not gonna do it on the day of generally speaking,

Janty Yates 21:43
Generally speaking. I wouldn't know but I mean, he did this on Gucci, E. LG, I came running down with LG, she had this red dress that we'd made another red dress for, ironically, that we'd made for eight weeks, we'd been making the twile, fitting it, making it in the fabric, fitting it, fitting it again. And then we run down to the set. It's supposed to be when she meets Maritza, for the first time. And we're doing what's this? And I said, it's the red dress. And he won't see her legs. So we put her up on an apple box. And thank God, she brought her wonderful man from New York, who did the cutting because I would have just gone like, we took 18 inches off the hem of the dress to make it a nice legs dress. Oh, my hemming, nothing just like with five camera crews all standing around drumming their fingers. Chewing gum waiting for us.

Alex Ferrari 22:56
Oh, that must that. I mean, I can imagine that's a little bit a little bit of pressure, a little bit of stress

Janty Yates 23:01
Ohh no on his role with Ridley his called role was Ridley he'll say, he'll say something like on the in the court of Ramses the third, he'll go or is read again. Actually, he's he'll say everyone's in white and gold. And you know, there's lots of clerics and say, I don't I'd like something red. You're just about to shoot. On maybe there's 10 clerics. So it's roll with Ridley, you know,really.

Alex Ferrari 23:32
And you're and you're always locked and loaded, just in case, I'm assuming at this point in the game?

Janty Yates 23:38
Yes, of course. Haha.

Alex Ferrari 23:41
You figure it out. You figure it out. But that's what makes?

Janty Yates 23:44
I know, I know. You never know what he's going to come up with. What? Okay, right. I mean, I remember on the Martian, and Matt, Matt's just sitting in a park and 20 students jog past him. And he went, why haven't they got any baseball caps on? Okay, and as Sarah said, run the crew. And we were blocking a gaffer taping. I mean, that's just a day in the life of costume designer, blacking out the Nike signs, you know, just beanie hats. Yes, I'll have 10 of your beanie hats, camera crew for, you know,

Alex Ferrari 24:25
Amazing

Janty Yates 24:28
Because it was supposed to be New York, or America really.

Alex Ferrari 24:32
Exactly. Now, can you talk a little bit about the power of color in the work that you do and the emotional attachment that we have with color? And you know what red kind of means what green kind of means? Or is it basically just whatever, you know, release feeling that day? Is there. I mean, obviously red has a very different distinction than blue or green and address. Can you talk a little bit about that for the audience?

Janty Yates 24:57
Well, he basically He only goes to red. Usually when it's involved with something quite personal, something fairly, maybe sexual, you know, it's sort of it's the naughty woman will wear red. And the reason that LG wore it was because she was kind of on the hunt, even though she was very innocent and young in that time, early, early days when she's seduces Maritza that night on the dance floor. And he's not very keen on brush colors is not keen on. On what's the word? When you can see them at night,

Alex Ferrari 25:50
Neon, neon loud.

Janty Yates 25:52
Exactly, exactly. He's not keen on those sort of colors. He prefers the colors of an old master. He loves grays, browns, beiges. He loves all those all those tones. That was navy blue, he loves blues of all colors. But it's all dependent on the setup, all dependent on you know, whether it's contemporary, or period, everything is pertinent to the set.

Alex Ferrari 26:24
Now on a film, like the last duel, which I just I just recently watched a few days ago. And, you know, I have to say there are very few directors left working inside the Hollywood system that can paint with a brush like Ridley does, that's given the resources to paint these large on large canvases, which are not based on a superhero, or a major IP or Harry Potter or something like that. I can probably count them on one hand, one or two hands, how many of these are left? What was it like working on last duel in this? I mean, if you've also worked in the kingdom of heaven, which is also a massive, medieval medieval part, how was it like working on and last? And how did you specifically question? How did you handle the mass amount of people and battle sequences and clothes? You know, costuming, all of those? What's the process?

Janty Yates 27:30
Yes, you basically you have a wonderful wardrobe supervisor who I have in Italy, and we get a lot of costumes from Italy. And they just look after the street. People. They look after the upper class, the middle class, obviously, the the battles where they had to be really in full armor. So that was, that was a problem. We rented a lot of armor, because we couldn't make for every single soldier, you know, there's no way we could afford that. Because it was bad enough, just getting the 12 or so for each of the, of the leads. So they basically they did work we had one or two, maybe five or six in actual metal, but most of it was urethane, which is you know, the go to fabric of making armor now. And so that was that taken care of the deal. They were all upper class along the the top most of them were actors. So we we designed them I mean, it's a very I could just drone on about it, you know, from where everybody everybody costume came from, you know, the king we had embroidered in Chalk Farm, North London, for example. And the queen, you know, everything I really could I could sort of write a book about where everything came from, you know,

Alex Ferrari 29:19
So so on on a project that big, you know, because most filmmakers listening to the show will never be able to play that kind of, you know, that kind of color palette is a very few people that can do that. What is the process of just literally the actual production process of clothing? On day one everyone's call time is five o'clock in the morning. Okay, we've got you know, 1500 extras 250 extras is everyone going through a tent and just basically almost like a assembly line, getting fitted for the for the background and things like that and maybe on a battle sequence. We're working to see on screen at one time, maybe 500 to you know, not 500 but 100 people at a time because I know a lot of my be added in post to make it look bigger. But I know from what I've read about Ridley, he likes to do as much in camera as possible. Is that correct?

Janty Yates 30:08
Yes, that's absolutely correct. And we fit them all in advance. So they all come in the day of shooting, they know exactly what they're wearing. There it is literally a production line, they come into us, they get dressed, they get then go on to hair and makeup, they go there. And then after they're out of hair and makeup, they go to the armor, let's say we're talking soldiers here. And also, there's a huge amount of stunts that are used now in in battles, because they're more useful, frankly, than just having extras who can ride. So they have their own tents they have, but there's exactly the same production. And the same with the civilians, they literally will come in maybe at three or four in the morning. Not quite as bad as Gladiator, which was 132 in the morning. But we had 3000 there.

Alex Ferrari 31:12
So was it was it really literally 3000 people that you guys had to

Janty Yates 31:16
Yeah, he had 3000 in Morocco. So one of the smaller battles. And then 3000 A day in Malta for the Colosseum for four weeks, I think.

Alex Ferrari 31:36
I can't I mean, I can't even comprehend on a production of that magnitude. That's just the people let alone feeding the people, let alone clothing people, let alone bathrooms.

Janty Yates 31:51
It's, it's a huge moving circus, you know, it really is. But we've always fitted them before we fit them, you know, upfront. And basically, they know what they're going to wear. They know what they've also visited hair and makeup before. So they know they're going to get a, you know, a shock of new hair or, you know, brows or, you know, great big bushy beard or whatever. And so they know all of that. And there's no surprises, really. And they know what arms because the armors always deal with, you know, however many there are 200 300 400 they deal with them, and they have them out, you know, when they're actually on set. As for feeding them and Lou stops, then you know this huge, great tents of catering honey wagon that go on as far as the eye can see.

Alex Ferrari 32:52
Basically no other productions are around you at that time. They basically have taken all the honey wagons. Yeah, exactly. Now, I mean, you've had the pleasure of collaborating with Ridley for the last, you know, couple a couple decades, you must have been on set multiple times watching him? Is there anything that you can see, because it takes a very special director to be able to orchestrate on such a large scale? You know, it, you know, really doesn't make private movies in a room? That's not he doesn't make the one location film. That's not what really does. What did you What do you see in working with him over these years? That is a skill set that he has, that allows him to continuously? Not only do this once every few years due to a year? It's insanity. How does he What does that thing you see?

Janty Yates 33:49
Yes, it is. It's just madness. He's a complete fiend for work. You know, I've spoken to him over Christmas. And he goes, No, I'm just going down to my shed to paint. You know, I can't bear this hanging around nothing to do. You know, he's an complete, he's a fantastic workaholic. But what I never, ever will understand is how he can position five cameras and be done. That's what I can't answer. I can watch him work. And I can see his brain working. And he's mapped it all out beforehand, every shot that he's going to shoot, which is extraordinary. I mean, that's extraordinary in itself. But the fact that he handles these five cameras, so commonly he in the DOP is Doris Wolski at the moment, you know, they just handled camera crews so gently and so you just put yourself there and you get this close up and you get the mid shot. You know, they just do it. I mean, x amount of times a day, and very often he'll feel Shirley because he's got everything in two tapes. He's a miracle worker, he really is.

Alex Ferrari 35:06
Yeah, I was gonna say, because to be able to shoot at that scale with that kind of Canvas, and with that kind of just humanity that you have to deal with sometimes, especially like on the last duel, or even out of Gucci, there's so many people you got to deal with. I've heard that he shoots five cameras at a time, that is a master as a master at work, be able, because to be able to light four or five cameras, be able to move and capture everything, he has to be able to move quickly to be able to efficiently to be able to work within these budgets, and he's working within.

Janty Yates 35:42
Well, absolutely. And I think Daris works, they work very well alongside each other. And they've got it down to a really, you know, a fast pace. And it's fantastic. And he moves on. He beats the schedule, sometimes.

Alex Ferrari 36:01
He's ahead of schedule, sometimes on some of the most massive projects going on in Hollywood.

Janty Yates 36:08
But he's confident in what he's got. That's the thing. It's amazing. I mean, that's what he wants.

Alex Ferrari 36:15
Right! Exactly. Because he's been I mean, he's gone to war so many times. I mean, he made his first feature, and at I think 40. But before that he had shot 5000 Commercials

Janty Yates 36:26
5000 Probably 6000. Exactly. He was a past master even before he shot, you know, the dualists his first feature.

Alex Ferrari 36:37
Yeah. It's remarkable. Now, all these years as you've been working, is there ever been a day and I have to believe there has been when there's a day on set where everything in your department, something has gone wrong? The world is coming crashing down around you. You're like, oh my god, how am I going to get out of this? And what was that moment? And what project if you can tell me? And how did you overcome it? Or does it happen every day?

Janty Yates 37:07
Every day. How a costume designer can just sit at their desk, and let everything go on around them. I'm on set all the time, because Ridley will come out with Well, we're going to have a couple of horses, can we just get a couple of Grooms and, you know, maybe a child on the back of the horse or something like that, you know, oh, okay, running off putting out fires all the time. You know, he's just, he's inspirational. He really is. And you've just got to roll with it. Because otherwise,

Alex Ferrari 37:44
You lose your mind.

Janty Yates 37:46
Yeah, but he doesn't. He doesn't get what he wants. So you're facilitating him? As much as you possibly can, you know, and I mean, he understands if you haven't got that sky blue pink suit, you know, over the weekend. That's fair enough. He understands that. But he's he's a very tight taskmaster. He keeps you on your toes. He but he inspires constantly. So what's not to love?

Alex Ferrari 38:17
And when you were so when you run that set of Gladiator, and that's your first big movie, which I can't believe you were thrown into the deep end of the pool at your first feature. I mean, you're basically working with a living.

Janty Yates 38:31
I did a lot of features before but never anything of that.

Alex Ferrari 38:36
Right! With Ridley Yeah, if you had worked on future

Janty Yates 38:40
Huge budget, huge. And then for it to have the success. Unbelievable. You know, it was extraordinary. But now I had done I have done some features before.

Alex Ferrari 38:54
No, no. Yeah, I know you've I've done yeah, but nothing at the scale of gladiator and being kind of tossed into your into the deep end with Ridley. I mean, I have to ask you, because I always love asking anybody who happens to win an Oscar, what's that all experience being in that hurricane? The center of the storm like that, being on your first big monster Hollywood film? What was it like?

Janty Yates 39:18
Well, it didn't belong to me the Oscar, she belonged to my entire team. She you know, had four different companies making armor. I had you know, even from the drivers for everybody in Morocco, everyone in in Malta, I think there are probably, you know, 200 people that that Oscar belong to, and my assistant and my supervisor. I didn't feel worthy of it, to be honest.

Alex Ferrari 39:49
Really, and it just kind of like it must be it must have been surreal. It must have been surreal.

Janty Yates 39:57
Well, it's like nothing else that whole weekend of completely feeling like a princess. And you know, I didn't. There's no way I was going to get it. You know, the fact that I got it, I was completely stunned and speechless. So that was, that was extraordinary. But I wanted to thank everybody, you know, I would have stayed up there for an hour, listing everybody's name because I didn't feel it belonged to me.

Alex Ferrari 40:30
Now, I have to ask you, you also worked on another film that just got released. Because really releases a movie a week apparently. House of Gucci. When I saw that, when I saw the trailer for that I was like, oh my god, the costume designer must have had a ball diving into the archives of Gucci of all companies. What was it? Like? How much fun did you have on that project?

Janty Yates 40:57
Had so much fun. It was great. And basically, they open the archive. But the archive was moving. And they were storing us we finally got to see the archive, there only about 20 outfits, but they allowed us to ship them over to LG. And she fit them all like a glove. They were fabulous. And we actually then this was October, we fit her kind of, I think in January in LA. And then basically, or maybe it was December anyway, it doesn't matter. Then they when we started shooting towards the end of February, they released them and we kept them in a strong room in the hotel. We were all bubbled in. And so we basically we knew that they fit and we knew that they look great. But Patrizia Reggiani didn't wear a lot of Gucci, because it was kind of a bit conservative. She liked Eve zanla Wrong. She loved Dior. She loved she Vaughn, she etc. So I was so lucky. I found two really. And they had the most wonderful archives. Also alamode and Ferrante. They had archives as well. But it was it couldn't see the other end of the room. It was just because I was thinking where am I going to find all of this costume that I need for LG because I had a cutter, and he was making the most wonderful stuff. But I needed the archive as well. And I found all of your all of Shivaji all of Eve Center at tirelli. It was amazing. Absolutely amazing. So I was very, very happy. And you know, LG would come into a fitting and she goes, that's what I'm going to wear when I meet or Axio. Or this is what I'd like because we all have all the stuff that we'd made as well. I my cutter started very early. And so we'd have a lot that was just punted to fit. And then we'd have to see.

Alex Ferrari 43:08
I mean, I mean, Lady Gaga is essentially a, essentially a fashion icon in her own right prior to being here. So I could only imagine having her almost as a collaborator, as well as going, Hey, I want that. I think this would be good. And let's ask Ridley

Janty Yates 43:25
She was great. She was so collaborative, and so happy to, but she would never ever wear the same outfit. She had 54 different outfits. She would always say right, that's it that's done and we'd pack it away with the earrings. With the three necklaces, with the bracelets with the brooches with the handbag, we'd pack it away and it would never be touched again.

Alex Ferrari 43:49
Wow, really? So sitting somewhere in a warehouse.

Janty Yates 43:53
No, it's actually in LA. Oh, it's over. I think MGM I think they have it the moment. But everything else. For example, the 40 suits I made for Adam and the 1520 seats. I made Frappuccino there at the moment in a warehouse in Rome because they're embargoed until the film has come out. Well now. Last week it came out so we'll be sending those all over to MGM. I guess.

Alex Ferrari 44:27
You're too busy on Napoleon right now think about things like this. Guess Yeah. Because normally you get you get a year off, you know, you know, between projects. So you're like, oh, maybe I get six months off. But I guess working with Ridley you don't get much breaks.

Janty Yates 44:42
Well, this has been extraordinary. You know, I think what happened? Because I knew about Gucci a year before we actually started it. And I was sent the script I went to the museum in Florence is beyond fantastic. It really is Gucci museum. And I went there, and I crewed up all my Italian crew. And then we didn't do it that year, because Matt brang Ridley, and said, Well, I've just written a script with Ben, would you like to shoot it? And he went, Yeah. Would you like shoot it now? Because we're all free? Yeah. So you know, that just came like a missile out of the blue.

Alex Ferrari 45:30
Again, the small little independent film that Matt wrote, Matt and Ben wrote that's the thing. It's like,

Janty Yates 45:38
Came along, you know,

Alex Ferrari 45:40
It wasn't a small little movie to like, sneak in between house of Gucci.

Janty Yates 45:46
Well, in point of fact, because COVID happened, right? There's six weeks in France in medieval France. And then we thought we were going to Ireland to shoot the rest of it. But no, we were all sent home from Ireland. So that

Alex Ferrari 46:05
Slowed things down

Janty Yates 46:06
A bit. Yeah. That was COVID. But MGM reached out to me and said, Would I like to do six to eight weeks on research and development of Gucci? During during a lockdown? Yes, please. Thank you. We did a huge amount of research. It was terrific.

Alex Ferrari 46:25
What it shows on that it shows on the on the screen that you had you would you have gotten that much time prep on a movie like Gucci? Or did was COVID allowed you a little extra time that you wouldn't have normally had?

Janty Yates 46:38
No, I think I'd have probably been asked to do research and development. Anyway, they might. But I had to get my cutter to start early. Because we were just Dancing in the Dark measurements wise, we haven't sure for everything up with LG. So thank goodness, the MGM head of physical production. said yes, he can start early. So I might have been just asked to do that research and development then. But who will never know we

Alex Ferrari 47:16
Never will never will look after COVID has changed everything for everybody on the planet. So it's will never there's a lot of will never notice of what if there's a lot of what ifs?

Janty Yates 47:28
No, I was I was working at a local food bank. And I was just happy to actually earn some money during lockdown. That was great.

Alex Ferrari 47:40
Exactly.

Janty Yates 47:43
I'm saying Alice that. Very happy to get my teeth into Gucci.

Alex Ferrari 47:49
That's fantastic. Now, what advice would you give a costume designer or that wants to kind of break in of someone who wants to get into your kind of line of work in the business?

Janty Yates 48:01
Well, I knew nobody. Absolutely nobody. And my partner at the time was an editor. And he said he pointed out you know, commercials and little films and things like that they all need costuming, I didn't really. I didn't know that knew. I mean that's how naive I was. But I had been to college and I had you know, done my time. So I basically worked for anybody who'd have me I did stills I did you know and assistants assistant assistant, working for no money, literally sort of you know, but she washing stockings and awning skirts and doing anything that they give me to do. And gradually I sometimes be asked back and given a small amount of money. So really it's get yourself a basic training. And persevere. Be as nice as you can because that helps that you get us back. Never seen no. Right All right. All always carry a notebook and if you can't think of anything to do on something

Alex Ferrari 49:20
No, that's so look busy is what you're saying if you keep busy. Wow, that Jan she looks she's working hard over there. We should bring on the next. No, now I'm going to ask you a few questions. I ask all my guests. What is the lesson that has taken you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Janty Yates 49:43
Well, I've trusted people terribly and made terrible choices. And I really still always believed the best of everyone. And I'm getting more and more cynical as I get into my Olden age, so, I think really, I would just say, you know, always give people the benefit of the doubt. But only three times.

Alex Ferrari 50:16
Wow, only three times. That's just once three times. So you're not that cynical yet. You're not that cynical yet. No. And what are three of your favorite films of all time?

Janty Yates 50:30
Oh, well, Lawrence, of course. Every Yeah, I just still, I watch it probably once a year. And love it, I will say loved Anna Karenina of that time with. And listen, there's another David Lean. Direct directorial. I love David Lean any of his work. The third one, I can't really think I'm just running through all the movies I've seen. There will be blood, possibly such. Yeah, that's such a Great Dane is who? Thomas Edison. Just all day? No, just amazing.

Alex Ferrari 51:23
Now, are there any projects that you would would aim someone interested in costume design to look at? Are there any films that you can go? Oh, if you want to get it? I know. It's a tough question. I know. She just made she if anyone just listening, she just gave me a look. It's anything that pops to the top of your head, you're like, you know what, these, these two or three movies are really great. But there's 1000 of them out there. But the things that may be synced to you personally?

Janty Yates 51:50
Well, it's very, very hard. I have to say that's why I was I was giving you the look of what there's so much out there. I really didn't think off the top of my head. I could pick anything to say, watch this and learn. Because I think you learn every day from everything you see. Every film, every movie that you watch, you just learn. And you know I could I honestly cannot think of three just off the off the cuff like that. I would have to email them to you. Hard, like, oh, but that's not fair on that one. That one.

Alex Ferrari 52:39
It's like putting a guest list together for a wedding. Well, if I invite this person to help them and then you got 500 people.

Janty Yates 52:48
Yeah, exactly. I'm sorry. I'm gonna Wiltshire's that one.

Alex Ferrari 52:54
Fair enough. Fair enough. Fair enough. Jessie, thank you so much for being on the show. It has been an absolute pleasure and honor speaking to you and please continue doing the amazing work you're doing with with all with every every project you work with and, and and with Ridley because we need. We need projects like the ones you're working on out there because it they're an endangered species in Hollywood. They really are. So thank you so much for the work you do.

Janty Yates 53:22
Well, thank you so much for talking to me. I've so enjoyed it. And really, it's all Ridley it's not me.

LINKS

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IFH 535: Getting Your First Feature Off the Ground with Leroy Kincaide

Leroy Kincaide, Leroy Kincaide filmmaker, the Last Rite

Today on the show we have filmmaker Leroy Kincaide.

With over 15 years’ experience in the entertainment industry, both in front of and behind the camera, Leroy has featured on shows created by companies such as ITV, BBC, WWE and PARAMOUNT.

Before turning his creative hand to the film industry, Leroy was one of the UK’s top professional Wrestlers, holding a heavyweight championship and at the peak of his career had a televised match on WWE’s SMACKDOWN at the O2 arena.

It was around this point in his life, Leroy realised that he wanted to be the creator of his own destiny, so after what was looking to be a very promising future in the wrestling business, he found his true passion for the film industry, and decided to embark on becoming a film director.

Wanting to express his storytelling creativity, he founded Nocturnal Pictures in 2014 and has since written and directed several short films, music videos, and has successfully completed his debut feature film The Last Rite.

A medical student suffering from sleep paralysis finds herself plagued by a demonic entity, after moving in with her boyfriend.

With a distinctive style, dark vision and thought evoking take on story narrative, Leroy is currently building a slate of genre movies fitting for what his imagination can create in a dark cinematic universe.

Following the success of the world premiere of The Last Rite, Leroy was nominated for the Screen International “Genre Rising Star” Award for his debut feature film.

Enjoy my inspiring conversation with Leroy Kincaide.

Right-click here to download the MP3

Alex Ferrari 0:00
I'd like to welcome to the show Leroy Kincaide. How're you doing Leroy?

Leroy Kincaide 0:14
Hey, buddy. How's it going, mate you good?

Alex Ferrari 0:16
I'm good, man. I'm good. I noticed an accent. So you're definitely not from the States. Right Sir ?

Leroy Kincaide 0:21
Absolutely bloody not mate no from the UK from a little town called Maidstone in Kent. Oh, yeah, it's quite different from across the pond. But before we get going, Dude, I have to just say man, like big fan of the show. You got me through 2020 Not gonna lie. Every morning when I was making my breakfast. I was like, Yes, Alex Ferrari. Let's get that on. Yeah, dude, you're serving and protecting the, you know, the community of filmmakers that day. So

Alex Ferrari 0:31
I'm trying

Leroy Kincaide 0:34
Just keep doing what you're doing

Alex Ferrari 0:53
I truly, I truly appreciate that. Man. That means that means a lot. It means a lot. Man. I like I've said many times before, sometimes I just sit in front of this mic. And I don't know where this goes. It just goes out into the ether. And but people are listening. You know, it's hard. It's unlike a rockstar who could see the audience. I can't. So I don't know who's listening. So I love hearing stories like that. So a May 2020 was rough for everybody in 2021 Ain't that much easier? Yeah, we're still we're still definitely it's still not 2019. So take us back. Oh, 2015 Oh, the good old days. Yes. Gas wasn't seven, seven pounds a gallon like it is now. How much is gas over there? Now?

Leroy Kincaide 1:42
It's a lot. It's like, um, per liter. It's about one. So I've got diesel. It's like one pound 62. I think 160 falls there about

Alex Ferrari 1:56
That's a pound. So that's like to like 250. us something like that? Yeah, yeah, that's like super cheap. It's super cheap. By the way. That's super cheap. Like here? Oh, yeah. La, we got to around $6.50 per liter per nano per gallon. All you're doing leaders because you have the metric system because like the rest of the world, you have the metric system. We on the other hand, are still stuck on gallons. So okay, let's not get into a conversation of metric system. Let's move into filmmaking. So, you've got a hell of a story, man. was one of the reasons I wanted you on the show because you got a hell of a backstory. How did you get started in the entertainment business? And then how did that get into the film business?

Leroy Kincaide 2:42
So my, my background is very eclectic. Let's just say like, I've got a diverse space of repertoire of work. I started in the entertainment field. When I was 15. I was a professional wrestler, stuck to professional wrestling for quite a while. I'll wrestled probably up until the age of about maybe 30. And yeah, and then pretty much after that, I segwayed out of the game and just found a passion for acting and filmmaking. I had a great run while I was wrestler, had an awesome time I was in the process of potentially getting picked up by WWE had a match on SmackDown done all of that, but it just want to say it's like, you know, when you do something, you're too good to quit. But you don't love it. It was a bit like that.

Alex Ferrari 3:37
I feel it very much. So,

Leroy Kincaide 3:40
Dude, I love the industry for what it had. But I hated the business. I hated the business with a passion. Because it you know, it's like the film industry attracts a lot of interesting people. Some people can be predatory, some people not so predatory. Wrestling is no different. And it was that side of it. That for me just made it not so fun. You know, when you start realizing the magic trick is not really that magical. And you start looking beyond the veil of things, you start to realize that okay, you know, you're just a cog part of many other 100 different parts where when you grow up with the spectacle, what you see what you get different.

Alex Ferrari 4:22
Oh, no, I mean, I'm old school wrestling fan man back from the 80s like going to the WWF was kicking off and so I'm a huge I was a huge I saw the rock wrestle man. I saw Hogan wrestle. I mean, I was a big wrestling fan. From back in the day to man I was I watched WrestleMania one in New York when I lived in New York, so it was like going on in Madison Square Garden. I was living in Queens at the time, and I was watching Mr. T and Hogan. You know, taking that taking that Subway down. I saw the hole I still remember it so clearly. So I'm old era. Oh, yeah, dude, that's what that's when it was really created. That's when that's when a sports entertainer and started and that's the time when people didn't even talk about wrestling as being fake. Or not fake, but because it ain't fake, because trust me, I've seen wrestling it hurts. But yeah, pre predetermined outcomes and they're working as a team and all that kind of stuff. But back then you couldn't even say that it was like, No, it's a sport. Dude. The guy's wearing a turban, man. Come on. Like he's walking in wearing feathers. Like what? Come on. Seriously. You know, Coco, beware really? So do you throw it back? Oh, no. No, I can throw down I can throw down with my wrestling my wrestling trivia man back in the day. Oh, British Bulldogs. Dude, are you kidding? Man? Oh, yeah, dude, it was

Leroy Kincaide 5:40
Yeah, then back in the day. I mean, the rest of the the wrestling scene has obviously is, you know, some of the audience is changed a lot over the years. You know, the Attitude Era was the best era for me. Like that was where I was like, I want to live this sport and just dive right we're doing it like, I love it. Because you sacrifice your body so much in the industry, right? You come you come home and your back's aching. You've got like scratches all over your body and everything. And you don't do it for money you absolutely don't do for money because the industry unless you're at the top, you don't tend to get an awful lot of money. So I have a massive amount of respect toward the end guys out there throwing down on a nightly basis because you know, it's a lot on the body and a lot of broken marriages in that industry is you know, it's it's just Rachel Matic you know, I don't need to go into every detail but

Alex Ferrari 6:35
Yeah, it's the funny thing is that there's a lot of there's a lot of similarities between being an independent filmmaker and being an independent wrestler you know, because you know you are the product and and the different filmmakers trying to make the product but at the end of the day is trying to get seen trying to get noticed and there's a hell of a lot of abuse that comes along the way man you know you with wrestlers, it's physical, mental and so many other things that happen you know from every documentary I've ever seen especially going back to that go into that Jake the Snake documentary which was that connect that first time that you got to real behind the scenes of like oh my god like one of my heroes growing up is like living in a trailer park can't even like it's it really started to ring true like to this is the reality of what it is. And that's what I do on this show too with independent filmmakers like people lose their homes people's marriages break up if you're not smart about how you do it.

Leroy Kincaide 7:30
You've got it you've got to really like position yourself well to succeed I think the the biggest thing that happens in the industry is that people get caught up in the painkiller slash fast cars FAST Women in that scenario and right sure it's easy to burn out like that and unfortunately you know, if you're very heavily influenced by what people want to do, you'll end up just doing everything in anything and then before you know it you've got nothing because you mentioned Jake the Snake back in 2003 2004 was very fortunate I got an opportunity to meet Jake the Snake he come down to the wrestling school I was out and done like a seminar. And you know he's going through a rocky time at that time. But like

Alex Ferrari 8:14
This is pretty this is pretty this is pretty documentary. I was it oh three what it was it was that oh three? Oh, yeah. Very Oh, yeah. This is very before the documentary. Yeah.

Leroy Kincaide 8:25
Just before Yeah. So like, but what a wealth of knowledge man, like, you know, you see, you see as you say your stars like you know growing up and you see them as they end up and you're like, wow, what happened? And then you listen to their their genius ability to know how to communicate to an audience and cut promo like he was a king of promos, man. Like, he was the king of promos. And, yeah, it's just amazing to sort of see, you know, how far they can come and then how and how they can end up and it's a shame, you know, is a big shame. But, you know, the sport is the sport. And unfortunately, unfortunately, for some it's the way it is. So I think the key is about like playing with the cards the best way you can you tell?

Alex Ferrari 9:13
It's like the film business is the film business. And it is what it is and is the game the game changes monthly now, you know, everything's like what? When you start making a movie, the whole market is changed by the time you're finished making the movie. And that's something that we'll talk about yours because yours took a couple years, at least two or three years you said to to get going but you So you went from wrestling onto sets and working as an actor. You've been on many sets. What did you What is a nugget of a nugget, a golden nugget that you pulled out from? From being on all those sets that you brought into your directing and into your filmmaking career.

Leroy Kincaide 9:53
I'm in let's see, I would say the biggest takeaway. I can Use for for the audience's sake is to model patience. I think patience is something that we, we tend to lack a lot of in today's society. But moreover, like, when you're on set, you know, you call times that, like, you know, I was just doing some work on gangs in London, just doing a bit of stunt work on that. So you know, your call time is radically early two hours journey. You sit there all day, and you're not used, for example, oh, yeah, it's like, you could go, Oh, my God, I've had a bad day, blah, blah, blah. Or you just embrace the fact that you're working in one of the key industries that you want to be a part of, and embrace that. So moving from all areas that I've had experience with answered, like making films and stuff like that. The key is just to model patients. And to know that, like, there's a process for everything that you got to do. And, you know, just I think with patience, also comes the ability to, to make crucial decisions without emotion, coming to involved in it, because I think that's it's a very emotional game if you get too connected to make sure that his knees and emotion as the player a certain part.

Alex Ferrari 11:19
Yeah, I think some of the best advice I ever got was from Richard Linkletter, who said, well, however long do you think is going to take? It's going to be twice as long, it's gonna be twice as hard. And that's some of the best advice I've ever heard in the film business. And also don't be a dick. That's the other. That's like the best piece of dope. Don't be a dick. It's so true, isn't it? Isn't that true, though? Isn't that true? Don't be dick

Leroy Kincaide 11:44
The thing is people not saying it's a bad apple. Look, let's not kid ourselves. We all have a bad day. We all everybody day, yes. But the key is about how you don't allow your day to affect you, but beyond you others, and try your best to actually be someone that people want to mix it up and collaborate with. You know, in this world, we have an eclectic mix of everybody, which is important, because don't want everyone the same. So some people you naturally won't shoot the breeze so frequently with, but the key is like, you're all there to share the journey, right? And the process so just always get your pickaxes up, get your shovels and just dig, go for gold man.

Alex Ferrari 12:30
Cut wood carry water cut wood carry water

Leroy Kincaide 12:35
Amen.

Alex Ferrari 12:37
No, I just real quick, I wanted to kind of go back a little bit to your wrestling time. Is there anything from those 15 years working in that side of the entertainment business? Any lessons that you brought into your filmmaking as well?

Leroy Kincaide 12:54
Yeah, I would say it would be the, the discipline, the the, the the process of realizing that like, you know, when you start out wanting to do a certain the same wrestling, you'd want to do a certain move, you'd not do it right the first time, the 10th time, you're still not doing it right, the 20th time, the 30th time, maybe by the 14th time, you might have suffered something. And the repetition in the repetition is the thing that I find most effective in the film industry where I translate the whole book. So the way I look at that is being highly obsessed with what ever process I'm going through. And I repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat to a level that we're probably most people probably wouldn't want to keep going. But I think at the point when you feel like just there's enough, no, you've got more in the tank, keep going. The discipline that I find from wrestling that I pull into this industry, just it's paid, paid off hugely, because it meant at times where I could have dropped the ball there times where I could have maybe gone I don't know if I can quite do it. I know whether it's a good day, a bad day where I've got a cold, whether it's night, whether it's morning, I got to get up, I got to make stuff happen. And they said it needs to be done. Or the grade needs to be done. Or this script needs to be finished. It's just so easy to to let yourself off. And I try to not like ever do that. Like I do my absolute best to continue to just keep pushing the needle as hard as possible. Especially especially in in the film industry because the thing there's not it's not an easy way to make something happen. Right? It's always tough

Alex Ferrari 14:51
For every for everybody man for even at the event at the highest levels. Those guys are still struggling to get some things made. You know, you know I and I've gotten to talk to a lot of men I hear off air I like so what's your next project? Man? I can't get financed. I'm like you can't you got an Oscar How can you not get fine is in the like, he's the kind of movie I want to tell on the budget I need and this and that. It's it's it's different, obviously, than getting your first film off the ground, but it's still a struggle no matter who you are. Yeah, yeah.

Leroy Kincaide 15:17
It's always like, as I say, like, each new level brings a new devil, right?

Alex Ferrari 15:22
Oh, that's good. Say that again, say that again? Say that again? I like that one. So

Leroy Kincaide 15:25
Each new level brings a new devil.

Alex Ferrari 15:28
I'm gonna steal that one brother. That's good.

Leroy Kincaide 15:32
You know, nothing's ever really stolen.

Alex Ferrari 15:35
Yes, we're paying that will pay I'll pay for it, sir.

Leroy Kincaide 15:40
No credit is paid on. Yeah, with the new levels thing and new devils is basically like, you know, the more money you get, the more responsibilities are gonna come in the money. You know what I mean? It's like, at this level, you know, I've just made the debut horror. It's like, get fabulous. You know, we've just gone out there, and we've just made it happen. Sweet. Let's say the next film, we get a ton of investment in. Yeah, that's great. Now we've got responsibility. Not that we haven't already. But we now got a responsibility to make sure that that person that trust, us, gets it back. And then the higher the budget, the more people and I could just, you know, if there was 100 million budget thrown my way. You know, what, I think I need a stiff coffee, double espresso.

Alex Ferrari 16:35
Every, every 15 minutes on the set.

Leroy Kincaide 16:40
Process The weight of how, how much that is not just about my creativity, that's like, someone's trusting me with that. Like, that's a lot man. Like, and that's a responsibility not many of us are gonna ever feel the weight of so I think we can call stones, you know, people that have done whatever and whatnot. But it's like until we're there. You know, it's, we got to realize each level with its new Devil is a process.

Alex Ferrari 17:09
Oh, there's no question. And I've said that to so many people. I'm like, I can't even imagine what it's like to be James Cameron. Like, I mean, like, I can't even comprehend what he did with avatar. You know, the first Avatar, I can't comprehend what he did had to deal with, with that. davek being the biggest movie of all time, at that moment. You know, like, that kind of pressure and also trying to be creative. And also trying to deal with the politics and also trying to do it like it. I can't I Yeah, man. I, you if you see directors, they age, like presidents. Yeah, you know, it's like they because there's a lot of stress until unless you're like, unless you're like, like Ridley Scott, who can bust out like four gladiators a year. And he'd be like, I'm good. Like, he's just that guy. But because he's been doing it. Jesus, man. I think he's spent more time on set than he has outside of set in his lifetime. More like more likely.

Leroy Kincaide 18:10
Yeah, I think they were back in the mix of doing a new Gladiator.

Alex Ferrari 18:14
Yes, they are. Yeah, they're doing they're doing the the sequel to the sequel, The Gladiator. I mean, he just busted out what? That new one, the last tool and the house of Gucci and now he's doing another like he, he does and he's like 81 or something like that.

Leroy Kincaide 18:30
We don't know his age, but

Alex Ferrari 18:31
He's like, he's just he just but most prolific one of the most prolific directors of his of his generation. He just works Nevers, but I think that's the commercial side of it. He was because he didn't make his first feature to lose 40 Did you know that he didn't make his first feature to lose 40 That's when he made his first feature. But before that, he had 20 years of a million commercials and music videos.

Leroy Kincaide 18:56
But he posts so much like, I remember watching like, I think on YouTube, there's like a kook optics I've got like, yeah, behind the scenes there. Sure. And they were talking it was one of the cinematographers were talking about how we got lots of his inspiration from doing commercials for Blade Runner, and all of that because he got a lot of time to experiment in that space. And I think that's like phenomenal.

Alex Ferrari 19:22
Oh, no, no commercial because some of the best directors in history have come out of commercials but Ridley and Tony were the first do that really. They broke down that that was before Fincher and before Spike Jones and Fuqua and all those you know Michael Bay and those guys that came out afterwards but alright, we want to see we just get out there apologize. So tell me about your film and the last right how tell me the horrific story of how this thing got

Leroy Kincaide 19:51
You know, what did I have to do? Literally everything

Alex Ferrari 19:54
Who did you kill? Who did you kill? Where are the bodies buried?

Leroy Kincaide 19:58
In the back garden, just thank you. Thank you know so like the one the last right come about that Well, I think it film first the film is, let's say it's a mixture between Exorcism of Emily Rose meets Amityville Horror focuses around three elements sleep paralysis and night terrors. demonic possession, and shadow figures like Daddy, that's where the heart of the story is birthed from. inspired by true events, not story, true events, some of the events that have inspired that story I had personal experience with. So, you know, I used to get a lot of night terrors and sleep paralysis stuff when I was a kid, very interesting story, I won't go into massive, massive detail. But yeah, some things that affected aspects of my sleep right up until later years being like, you know, nearly 20. And I drew a lot of my inspiration for the piece around the subject matter itself. And then I just wanted to, like, serve it the best way I could, by telling a story that needed to be told, without all the smoke and mirrors stuff, you know, there was no budget to, to make it like, you know, with heavy CGI, and all of that. And so it was a case of doing the absolute best at telling the story without, you know, without any all the bells and whistles and giving it key execution. And that was really what we did. So we started in 2018, start beginning the script 2018 and filmed in 2019. There was a little story there that was due to shoot in March of 2019. So we we just secured the beautiful house that we went to shooting. So it's like yeah, let's get this house paid for the house. You know what they'll get money we had we booked the house for a month. And then just in between that I was doing door work. So as a part time doormen. So I was working in nightclubs and stuff like that. And this big fight erupted, pretty brutal, was punched in the eye with a key horrible stuff. And I put my arm out and told my bicep just before due to film. This was literally like the 20th of January. And I was about five, four weeks out from filming. So being, you know, on the indie side of it, where we had to literally do 1,000,001 jobs ourselves, as the DP as the director as the writer, and yet, everything. It's like, I knew what that meant. That meant we wasn't going to be able to shoot at the day would book the household. So we run the risk of losing like all of the all of what we put down as a deposit and everything. So luckily, we were able to work that out. So we pushed filming back until September. And then yeah, 2020 where you got me through was pretty much the edit. It was lots of editing, lots of cutting backwards and forwards collide a lot more time. Everyone had time.

Alex Ferrari 23:12
You got to perfect it. So you financed us, right?

Leroy Kincaide 23:16
Yes, yes.

Alex Ferrari 23:17
So. So do you mind talk? Do you? Are you allowed to talk about the budget?

Leroy Kincaide 23:22
Oh, yeah, we were quite cool to talk about is not

Alex Ferrari 23:26
Okay, so what was it? What was the budget of this film? Because it looks fantastic.

Leroy Kincaide 23:29
So the budget for the film was 27,000

Alex Ferrari 23:35
Pounds. So yeah, she's looking at like, $40,000 I'm like that probably 35 or $40,000. That's, that's pretty good. I mean, I believe it looks really good for that price. No, no, it No, it does look good. Look, I get I get hit up all the time if people want to be on the show. And the first thing I do is I check the trailer. And if the trailer doesn't like I can't man, I'm sorry. I can't, like I can't, I gotta, there's gotta be you gotta be at a certain level man. And I could smell it really quickly. But I saw that was a really nice, polished piece. It looked good. And then I was even more impressed when I found out that you did the majority of the hats and, you know, speaking from someone who does the majority of the things on my films, you know, I do I do the same thing. So hustle recognizes hustle. So how how did you handle all of those hats?

Leroy Kincaide 24:28
By you know, like, by not over complicating the wheelhouse, right? I guess you could say like if I if I look back through through my years and the backstory is important, because we all learn a different way, right? Like we can all retain information a certain way. Some people are like, proactive learners, they go out and do things make it work, but they use this in the classroom, or they're great in the classroom, but awful at putting things into practice. I was the first one. So I learned very well By doing stuff, I wasn't the best academically sitting in a room. So because of my abstract obsessive nature being, shall we say a tad off of the radar with high functioning autism and all that, not that that's a bad thing. What it allows me to do is process a high amount of information, and not see it as multiple things and see it as one thing. So what I do is, I don't see all the jobs as multiple jobs, I see them as part of the process to get the feel mate.

Alex Ferrari 25:34
To perspective is this perspective difference?

Leroy Kincaide 25:37
It absolutely feels like, if you talk about it, if I talk about it, and go, Okay, well, I had to learn about the writing. And then you learn about the writing into, you know, three act structure, and then you learn about character development, and you're this character work and all that, that's your script, and then you look at the lenses, and then you look at camera, and then you look at it, before you know it, there's like 20,000 Different things they're looking at. And if you put them all down on paper and said, You got to learn all of this in a matter of whatever your mind would just go. I can't How can you retain all that, but because over time, and I mean, this is over a gradual process of time, mind you, it's not like, you know, three years, I just said, I want to make a film. You know, I've been doing other bits before that other shorts, before that. The information has been just gradual. So what I've been able to do is fine tune the direction that I want to go in as a filmmaker, because that that helps, you know, knowing the, the direction I want to go creatively and as a an artist, but also as someone who's wants to be in the business as a business player, not just someone who's like, Oh, I've got to paint pretty pictures. Like, yeah, I want to paint pretty pictures, but it's no good if you film doesn't correlate in the right way. You know, so it's about realizing that telling the story comes from a few places, you know, as you know, is the story you write the story you read it and the story that you know, it's really so that it so for me, it was more about like, what am I serving as a story? Can I serve it to the best of my ability throw myself at all areas? Because we didn't have the money to throw it? All the areas? You know, we had like what? 30 I think it was like 36 days shoot.

Alex Ferrari 27:35
Oh, wow. Maybe you shot 36 days? On a on a $40,000 budget? How the hell did you do the bombing people were on your crew.

Leroy Kincaide 27:47
My producer, Chloe, you know, she was like wearing a gazillion hearts as well. Sure she was born wardrobe and Okay, prepping the food and that there was a sound guy who was with us the duration. And maybe on on most of the days we had a makeup artist, only one. But there were days where we didn't have any. And then other than that, it was all me like so. I

Alex Ferrari 28:16
You rigged all the light you rigged all the lights you set everything up yourself. You didn't know you had no gaff you had no, no grips. None of that stuff. You just figured it all out yourself. Well, man, that's even. That's even more impressive looking at the trailer, because you look at that film, it looks polished as hell, man. It does. It has a very good look to it. And it looks polished and doesn't look like it does not look in the least like you shot it for 40 grand and had three four people on set. I mean, it's I mean, it is a one location. It's basically a one location movie, right

Leroy Kincaide 28:51
14

Alex Ferrari 28:52
14 locations, you know, but most of it takes place in the house. Right?

Leroy Kincaide 28:57
Most of it takes place in the house.

Alex Ferrari 28:59
But you ran you ran around you ran around outside of the house as well in other locations.

Leroy Kincaide 29:05
Oh, no. So what we did, we had to have one block during the house process, which, you know, that that, you know, that was a process in itself because it was balancing night and day and a lot of the film took place at night. And there were some night and day shoots where you know, people got like no sleep. But ultimately, once we got the block of the house done, that was the main bulk of the film. And then there were other bits where we had to go to like church a couple of times. It was like two churches. It was like a another like monastery sort of place which we used where there's like an interview type of deal going on there or meeting so yeah, it was a variety of different locations to try and even though it takes place in one location, it was about trying to make it feel like it had more scope around it. Like it's a world there as opposed to just a house like you know So yeah, so there was a lot of legwork by all parties involved. But yeah, we we most we had four crew on a day.

Alex Ferrari 30:11
God bless, bro that that is that is impressive man because I know what it feels like shooting I shot my first feature in eight days for like you know a few 1000 bones and and I was I did most of everything and I had the most three four people on set. And mind you guys was a comedy not a horror, but it's still yours came out looking really really nice man. So congrats on that bro.

Leroy Kincaide 30:34
Are you talking about

Alex Ferrari 30:37
No, no, no, I'm talking about this is Meg.

Leroy Kincaide 30:40
Oh, this is Meg.

Alex Ferrari 30:41
This is Meg was my Yeah, this is Meg was my first feature which I shot for five grand over the course of eight days in LA and we just shot up a bunch of people's houses we shot it, I think in I think eight total days. And I shot I that was when I D peed myself because I was like what the hell I want to I want to shoot it. And it was my first feature. And we got it. We sold it to Hulu and we sold internationally. And we had some we had some faces and some you know some stars, not say stars but faces that people recognize. And it did very well. Ego and desire was a whole other code that was that was just me running around for three to four days with me and my sound guy, my camera man and my DP and that's it. So it was like three people running around Sundance stealing the entire movie.

Leroy Kincaide 31:25
It was very interesting the way you picked stuff up. I was assuming I was thinking, I'm sure did you have permits, they do permits, permits

Alex Ferrari 31:36
Permits. I just told the entire movie even went to Sundance headquarters and shot two scenes there. Yeah, we just we were just fearless man, it was just and it was so scary. Because honestly, I got on the airplane. And I didn't know if I had a movie, because I didn't have time to watch the film because we you know, we only shot we shot a total 36 hours for the entire feature. So production time was 36 hours. And there's just no time to sit there. And I mean, I saw that we transferred files but I didn't like look at dailies. So I did I really have no idea if I could fit if it was gonna be a really, really long short, or is this gonna be a feature? And I was like, I just need to make it 70 minutes. That's all I care about. I just needed 70 minutes, and we made it to 73 minutes. And I think we used 98% Of all the footage we shot. But oh yeah, it was just like, it was such a crazy experiment. It was an experiment. You know, it was just like, hey, let's see what happens. And don't forget, I was also shooting interviews at the time too. So I was like, making the movie on a side hustle. While I was actually interviewed people for the show

Leroy Kincaide 32:43
It should be more like about how you made that happen because like as someone that you know if you're doing a DP stuff as well.

Alex Ferrari 32:49
No, that was Yeah, that one I didn't DP actually smart enough to bring my DP with me. So ah, I'm so it was me my DP who was also my camera op with my gear and my lenses and you know, we talked about how I wanted everything to look and everything like that we shot it with a pen, it was the Blackmagic tennety P pocket cameras I wanted that 16 sensor and I had an amazing sound guy that was a three and then I had one friend who would just come and do whatever so we had four people crew running around with three talent seven is running around the entire dance asserting stuff it was it was insane. It was a different world when people could actually go on a bus without a mask on and there were crowds and all that all this stuff and was it the crowd

Leroy Kincaide 33:35
Ohh man what a time to have been alive right?

Alex Ferrari 33:38
Time to be alive. Jesus,

Leroy Kincaide 33:42
You would just think it was like let's literally like a couple of years ago.

Alex Ferrari 33:46
It was it was it was two three years ago when we shot it Yeah, we shot it in 2018 I released them in 2020 in January of 2020 right around Sundance time and we actually premiered it rain dance we will premiered it rain dance.

Leroy Kincaide 34:00
I was just gonna say we I was gonna go down there that year for 24 Rain dance but obviously you know obviously lock downs and stuff happened but rang dance like yeah, so they permeate that I study ocean dude.

Alex Ferrari 34:15
Yeah, it was a big that was a big festival for so it's a great great festival, the world premiere at and the only festival honestly that didn't have a stick up there but about a film about Sundance because I didn't realize how if you've seen the movie, you'll understand it is a perfect film festival movie. It literally is as perfect for film festival crowd as you can get. And film festivals just had a real big stick about promoting Sundance. And like because you don't want your audience sitting. Watching a movie about another festival that's much cooler than what your ads and I didn't consider that when I made the film. I thought it was gonna be like a Gangbuster across like, Oh, it's just gonna get the can. This is getting into Toronto. This is gonna get to South by this. Nope. You Nothing man I got rejected,

Leroy Kincaide 35:01
Like access denied

Alex Ferrari 35:03
Access, oh, no Access denied. But I always tell the story that Sundance normally when you send something to Sundance, you know, he's in that Vimeo link. And you see, like, it's it gets seen two three times, you know, like, you know, a couple, a couple of screeners will watch it. And you know, if it gets up a little bit, you might have four or five people watch the movie at 60 views. They just got passed through. Everybody watched it, because everyone's like, someone shot a movie at Sundance. Do you want to see this? Like, it was like, it was like this whole thing. And I've actually met is so funny. I won't say who it is. But I've met other programmers at that are big at big festivals. And then they'll go, Oh, you're Alex. Yeah. I've seen your movie. I was like, really? Like a 20? Shot of Sundance. Right? Yeah, we saw it. So it's like this cult little thing that goes on the ground now, but anyone listening? If you haven't seen ego and desire, please go, go go watch it. Because it's so it's, if you're, if you're a filmmaker, man, it's built for filmmakers. Now I have to ask you, man, so Alright, so we all have that day as directors on set, that the world is coming down crashing around us that everything's going wrong. And oh, my god, how am I going to get out of this? What was that day for you? And how did you overcome that obstacle?

Leroy Kincaide 36:22
Um, right. Now, I really wish I could say that that happened.

Alex Ferrari 36:30
It didn't say it was perfectly perfectly run through everything was smooth all the way through,

Leroy Kincaide 36:35
Outside of a day getting rained off, which was an evening, so we chop in the day in house. And then it was an evening, we just do tissue. But because it was raining, I was like, well, we'll just move it to another day. I wish I had a more dramatic story than that. Let me try and think of something. I mean, like, you know, the thing that I think is the most difficult thing in the process is being consistent. You know, if you're shooting, what play six nights, stay six days shoots and stuff. It's like, the persistent, like repetition of it is quite hard. Like I think that's, that's a tough thing, I'd say, in terms of an actual day and never really had a bad thing. Oh, boy, actually, oh,

Alex Ferrari 37:27
There it is. There it is. I was when I was I was waiting, I was waiting, I was like, wait a minute,

Leroy Kincaide 37:33
Swami. I'm not gonna I want I want, you know, I wanna throw anyone under the bus or anything. But there was one specific night, you know, I'm very, more to say, quite hands on director, I believe in allowing a lot of room for people to play and have fun. I think that's part of the process. In all areas, not just on screen, I think, you know, with crew, like, you know, allowing room for people to work and develop, because, hey, we're all in this process together. Let's make it work. There were just one of our team players on the crew side, who wasn't quite getting across what we needed. And what I would say, Anthony, this is a good point, actually. What I would say would be to stop the process of processing thinking, when you sense somebody is not right, as you get going. Now, you have interviews with people, right? You get people on board, you get people in the mix, you hope everyone's gonna stick by the word, and do what they say. Because that's why you employ them to get them in the mix. You're like, look, we got natural budget. It's gonna be a crazy ride, we want to do a fabulous thing with this project. You want to you want in like, you know, it's your first film, it's our first film, whatever, like this, just have fun. There was one of the people that we got working with over time, it did more to say, she probably should have left the project in the first week. But you know, you're trying to manage a budget and you keep people on board as long as possible. There was a point where we almost didn't get the main part one of the main aspects of the movie because of this individual, not quite being not not up to task, the attitude just wasn't, wasn't right. And, you know, you know, I, I try, you know, I want to come around and give hugs and love and rainbows and unicorns, but sometimes it unfortunately just doesn't work and that managing a person at four in the morning after a long slog of I was in that it can be quite taxing. So I think that was a tough, a tough thing. And the way I managed that is with empathy. You know, you have to, you have to remember that, like, you know, people were there away from their family and their loved ones, and I'm whatever. And I understand that. And I think it's not about, you know, being a lion and trying to bite people's heads off. It's about just being okay. You know, it is hard to not take it personal, though.

Alex Ferrari 40:32
I was a direct as a director, absolutely. I understand that point. Yeah, easily.

Leroy Kincaide 40:36
You know, when you're when you're trying to create something, and someone is trying to project to you what you need to do versus no, this is what I want, not what I need you to do for me, I just need this and all. So that managing those things, in that moment in time, probably, I would say was the toughest bit. If I'm honest, it wasn't like, you know, an actor didn't show up, or, you know, we rushed the location.

Alex Ferrari 41:08
But that's actually more that's, I think that's even more devastating than, you know, an extra not showing up sometimes. Because that's a one off thing where this is a continuous. It's a continuous burn, if it's not handled properly.

Leroy Kincaide 41:21
Yeah, yeah. And it's like the, you know, one of the things, especially in the indie, indie scene, right, is when you don't have a lot of budget to just, okay, thank you very much. Thanks for your time ended today, we'll get someone else in whatever. When you don't have the budget to really play in that ballpark. You You've got to remember, like, you've now run the risk. If the longer you keep said people in the mix, you run the risk of derailing what you're trying to do that. And that's one of the things that like, you know, because I believe for me, I like to, as I say, I like to give hugs, love, and all of that, because it's a tough process this thing. But there comes a point where you, you have to ask yourself, like, what is everybody here to do? You know, if if you are all here to tell your story, to get your film across the line? Because it's tough. Lots of days, lots of hours, and all of that. How do you work this situation to make it the best outcome for all. Now, sometimes you have to make a tough decision to do that. Because if you don't, what happens is you end up looking back in the edit, go in, I wish I'd done this, I wish I'd done that we shouldn't have done this, we shouldn't have done that. And I don't know as a as a filmmaker, I and a director, I can't allow myself that much leeway to sit down in the edit and go, Ah, I wish I just said this not gonna do it.

Alex Ferrari 43:03
No. And I think that's a lesson that you learn. I think that's a lesson that you learn as you get older. I mean, even though this was your first feature, you'd been around the block a couple times already, by the time you made your first as a human being, you bet. And so just but and also just bumping around and in, in wrestling and also as an actor. So this wasn't your first barbecue per se. So you've had some experience, but when you're younger, you don't want to ruffle feathers. It's about you know, ego sometimes and you don't want to, you know, you don't want to start fighting and so you let certain things go. But when you get into the Edit, you're just like, dammit, I wish I would have gotten that. Dammit. If I did not have to cut around. This is not exactly what my vision was. That's the lesson you start learning early on as a director. And look, I just had it happen a few years ago, when I was on I was on a show that I was doing and I won't throw them under the bus either. But there was a key crew member. We had to shoot. I shot 96 pages in four days. And it was it was a show an eight episode show. And we never went over we shot 10 hour 10 hour things 10 or 12 hours I forgot what it was, but we never went over and not one day. And this guy was giving me problems day one, and he was just giving me attitude. And I And the funny thing was, it was my production company. Like my producer hired him. My producer hired him. So I was literally paying his bills. And he and he had no he had no issue he like he he was just giving me attitude, like within the first day. And I just turned on my DP I was like, Oh, this isn't gonna work. We're gonna have to have a conversation. So I pulled them aside and he's like, Look, man, either get on get on board or get out of the way. Because I can do this without you, bro. I've done I've done I've been doing this 25 years. I don't need your position. I'll handle whatever you're doing. So either get on the board or get the hell out of the way. And it was a very smooth thing. Well after that it was very calm relaxed. Yes, sir. No, sir. But you know, sometimes there are those old it was he was a little bit older than me and had no idea not that I'm anybody but had no idea what experience I had. He just saw some guy show up and like Who the hell's this guy. And sometimes you've got to, you've got to show some teeth. Unfortunately, you've got to because it's your responsibility as a director to tell the story. It's in your hands. And if you don't fight for the story, nobody else will see it. And as a ODP friend of mine used to say you're surrounded by assassins. So like, there's constant things happening all around you all the time. And I use that term constantly is like, oh, surrounded by assassins? Because it's, it's like, oh, this is not working, or that didn't work or I can't get I can't get the dolly track fast enough. Or I got it set this line up again. I gotta make it turn around. It's 1000 things. But yeah, that turns surrounded by assassins is very, very apropos.

Leroy Kincaide 46:07
I like it, I like it,

Alex Ferrari 46:08
You can steal that one. And you can steal that one. Even Trade, it'll be an even trade. Yeah,

Leroy Kincaide 46:14
I'll put your name just underneath it like the quote, you know, surrounded by assassins? Yeah, I think I do think though, when I when I listened to the Savannah, you know, I'm some of the like the put my ear to the floor and listen to what the consensus in how things are, and what's moving and what's going around. I think it's definitely a subject that I believe a lot of people would talk more about, but they treat it very much like taboo, in terms of dealing with problematic characters, because unfortunately, you are right, the surrounded by assassins analogy is very, very crucial. Because, you know, everybody is making a movie with you. Or they're making their movie in your film. And the it's very easy to see what's going on. As all this is all smoke and mirrors. And it's all wonderful when lovely and dandy, but sometimes, you know, if if you don't address the key things that need to be stared managed, you know, there was a couple of other situations as well. Some stuff happened in post where other people you bring to the party to share a slice of the cake. And not everybody shares what you see. Oh, yeah. And I'm very pleased to have come out this side of it and very much stuck to my guns on everything, like I believe I will, I will always accept a new idea. I'll always accept the possibility of a new idea. But if it doesn't improve the direction and where I'm going, I don't want it. Like, I'm happy to say that because I think, you know, we have all got our own story that has got us to this point in time in life and stuff like that. And it it's not for me to know what Alex Ferrari should do to be better. It's like, if I can't give you what you need, then I shouldn't it's not my job to tell you what you need to do, because I want you to do it. Right. You know, and, and unfortunately, we get this word. There's a word that goes around the collaboration word. People say you're not collaborative, when the All they're doing is projecting what they want you to do. And right, that's not collaboration. To me, that's not collaboration, right?

Alex Ferrari 48:38
It's also not professional, you know, the professional, you know, when you're working with I mean, I mean, we could throw around big names like Ridley Scott or Steven Spielberg. And they, they actually have collaborators, who they've worked with on many projects and things like that, but they're actually collaborators, but they understand that the end of the day, it's even a release call, like, no one's gonna tell. And obviously, they walk in with the mountain of, of reputation that they've built over their careers. But when you look at George Lucas or James Cameron, who both no offense to the British, the British cruise, but gave George Lucas a hell of a time on Star Wars and gave James Cameron a hell of a time on aliens, and they both shot over a pinewood. And it was they just didn't, they just didn't believe in what this guy was these guys were doing and they just, they were making their own movie. And they had to like it had to fire the first ad. Like if you just watched on Netflix, they just released the movies that made us and I saw the whole aliens one and you just hear the stories and like, the first ad was like this British guy and he was like a legend is the first ad and the crew loved him but no one cared about this. James Cameron guy who did this little movie called Terminator who had not it yet in England, so no one had ever even seen what he done. Oh, it's a whole story. But anyway, but yeah, but they fought through it. They fought through it and were able to To create, you know, two of the greatest, you know, sci fi films in history, you know, but that's the, but that's the case of who they are. As filmmakers, you know, and they had to fight to get that thing I have to ask you, did you have tea time? Is that a thing? Or is that just really? Was there a time? What is their tea time on set? Stop? Do you like stop production in England? For at like, oh, it's one o'clock. God stop tea time. Is that a thing?

Leroy Kincaide 50:28
I would like to say that's not really a thing. But I think that's more of a thing that we probably as Brits, like, admit, for sure. Like, you know, slight like, sure. Sure. It's, it's like a sacred practice here. Like, you know, lunch has to be lunch, like, we you know, it's got to be the right lunch. It can't be like, any sort of lunch. It's got to be the right lunch. And what I mean by that is like, yeah, we've got working lunches and stuff. Sure, sure, you know, in the game and stuff like that. But ultimately, we all as Brits, I believe, do like the solid one hour lunch. Without fail every day, we can get that most people are cool.

Alex Ferrari 51:09
But there is a break for Tito. There's a little tea time break somewhere along. So it was so funny. It's so funny, because I come from Miami. And that's why I started my production career. And I'm Cuban. So I was raised on Cuban coffee. If you're ever in a production, a true production in Miami wood that is based from Miami, you're gonna see a little old man, or a little old woman. Come around with a tray full of thimbles there thimbles of coffee. And you're going to look at and go, Wow, that's such a cute little coffee. Maybe I should have five or six of them. No, you should pick one. And hold on tight. But that's the thing and everyone stops for the Cuban coffee. Everyone can. That's a Miami production thing. It does happen all the time. But if it's a true Miami production, they they bring that around and I love Mike man when I'm on set, man, I got a little man comes out. And he's like, making it like in the back on like on a hot lead. Not a hot stove. But uh, you know, I'm talking about the electrical stove or something like that, like, yeah, yeah. And he's just like mixing it in like a can and stuff. And like, ah, ah, the best man. There's the

Leroy Kincaide 52:16
There's nothing like coffee like so one of the one of the rules I made sure we had in our house was like coffee was on top. 24/7 If you want a coffee, there's an espresso machine and a Tassimo machine. Don't make yourself one. Absolutely. Because I think like, you know, in the house, it was very, like, a communal area. Sure, sure. When we shot the film. So, you know, we sort of like said, you know, all the policy here, guys, whenever you want a coffee, it was you know, it wasn't like, we put it way out of the way. And you can only have it between the hours of one and two and don't taking too many. There was just like we just, I believe very much so in like being able to look after your your people that they're No, it's just it's bothering.

Alex Ferrari 53:04
And that's such a small thing. But go such a long way. Like if you're on set and it's the 11th hour. And I gotta like beg for a cup of coffee. It's a it's not a good thing. Like I gotta make a run to Starbucks. Like that shouldn't be a thing. I mean, maybe an extra thing. But if you just want to grab a quick coffee or quick something to keep you going. Feed them well. Make sure there's always coffee. Try not to do have you heard of the spinning that's spinning wheels of death for lunch or dinner? Have you heard of spinning wheels of death? No. That's pizza. That's pizza. So that's good. Spinning wheels of death as as my old salty DP used to call? Are you not giving a spinning wheels of death? Are you Please don't. Please don't do that. Because Because pizza will just bring you it just slows everything down. It's quick, it's cheap, but you will pay for it. In the long run.

Leroy Kincaide 53:56
Yeah. I mean, like we for most of the nights because obviously we we were pretty much on average. I mean shooting night shoots, right? We were literally we pretty much all became nocturnal. So we didn't really actually get to bed much before six to 9am on people. A couple of you know, the legendary crew. You know, Jonathan Ito he was our sound guy. He was traveling up from London to Ken so he would come down and he'd like you know, you'd get down for like five maybe 6pm You'd have his nice coffee and have his token coffee as he would always do but then by the time he was finished, he would have to drive another hour and a half back God bless like six six in the morning and he hit this guy this guy was like one of our like bedrocks short sound sound of your of the production because I think for me, I absolutely worship sound I think It's jumping.

Alex Ferrari 55:02
Look, look when I was making one desire, man, people were like, how the hell did you get that sound like, it sounds like it sounds amazing. I go, it's all a mixture between my location sound guy and my post sound guy. And both of them working together made that movie sound much better than it ever had any business of sounding. And it gave me gave the whole movie a production boost of value production value boost. It's so so so important.

Leroy Kincaide 55:29
Yeah, yeah. I mean, one of my, one of my, he was the key person, and we got involved first. So he was our first team player. And, and I said to him, I said, you know, like, we're going to be working very closely, because, you know, I'm DP in it and stuff. But one of the things I said to him, I was like, Look, you are like, pretty much like God on the set, in terms of, if you need more time to set up that thing to get the sound right. We're going to take the time, and we're going to set that up how you need it, because he was on his own. So he didn't have a mixer or whatever he was mixing and doing all this stuff.

Alex Ferrari 56:05
Just mix it and hold it up. Oh, yeah, do this and say, Oh, no, dude. These guys are ridiculous. I have no idea how they pull that stuff off, man. It's, it's amazing. To me,

Leroy Kincaide 56:15
I'll be like, Oh, dammit, we got a boom in shop. But the shop is great.

Alex Ferrari 56:21
We'll fix it. We'll fix We'll fix that out and post. Are you kidding me? We'll, we'll fix it and go clean that up. I always have a rule. Man, I always have a rule. If I'm on set only I'm the only person that can say we can fix it on post. Because I'll be the one fixing it in post. No one else has a lot to say we'll fix it in post because that they have no understanding of what it actually takes to fix that post.

Leroy Kincaide 56:42
Oh, my. Yeah, it is one of the one of the main scenes in the movie, where we've got the main light exorcism thing going on. Lots of action going down. Lovely. Lovely. So I've set the light up. So I've tried to make this light feel like there's some ambient moon light kicking through the room, but it's just like the screen hazy sort of thing. I was like, yep, sweet placed it there. I've got no choice to think about is it bouncing off of the bloody bed is it bouncing off of here. You know, because of the the time in the evening. I just had to get it up. I literally just we should be true. The trigger piece gets opposed. And I can see the light on one part of the bed. The rest of the frame looks cool. But it's on this one particular bit. Every single angle every frame. And I'm like, does this mean I've got to rotoscoped the entire piece. Two and a half weeks later. Yes. I had to literally cut out a light. And I'm very glad I did it. But oh boy is like pulling teeth.

Alex Ferrari 57:50
Amen. It's a lesson you will I promise you won't do that again. I promise. No. That's when you when you get bit once you learn. You're like yeah, well that's that's put it in the back. That's not gonna happen again. Now, you another part of your story, man that's really remarkable is that you landed a major, you know, somewhat say legendary distribution company for indies. Samuel Goldwyn here in the States. How the hell did you land Samuel Goldwyn as a distributor for release of a film? That's from the UK with no stars. In a genre, that's, let's you know, call it what it is. There's a million in one horror movies out there. So how the hell did you land that man?

Leroy Kincaide 58:37
Um, I don't have any

Alex Ferrari 58:42
Idea how it happened.

Leroy Kincaide 58:44
Words gonna say we did this. And we did that. And we did this. And we did that. But however, what I can say, is the things that led up to that opportunity being able to exist. One of the things I would definitely yeah, I'll put this out for people is that like, I was quite naive at the start of it. When we got out, you know, somebody's golden in his company wants to buy your movie and stuff in our kindness. Cool. Right? And I'm like, I feel like I've heard the name before, but I'm not too sure. Anyway, he had this deal sitting around for like, a week, right? And I remember I was talking to him. And then I said, yeah, we've got this company who's quite interested in our film, you know, because we had a lot of nose weird. We had so many knows so many critique so many different things, because everybody's got their idea and what they think, are you moving right? So we would like you know, we got this deal. It seems quite cool. It's in America. America was our main territory that we wanted to really hit. And I sent them an analysis company that said, Oh, Sam Goldwyn, is so what Metro Metro Goldwyn Mayer think Metro goblin. Yeah, yeah, MGM. MGM was that night Yeah, literally, like, for a week, I reset with this name loosely in my head, thinking I'd heard of it. And then I researched it. I was like, what an idiot? And I realized it was the part of Yeah. Yeah, the the legend that he was of these period of time, you know, and the legacy that that company represents was just like, I was very taken back, I'm not gonna lie, I was like, you know, his little old me from a little modest village, you know, don't come from any specific background, and in my family of filmmakers, you know, getting our movie with very little resources available, right from the ballpark, my French part for my big ton of hard work and just effort put in, you know, got our film there. And I did ask myself this question, I was like, what is what has led to this point in time for us to get this movie? With a company like that? And, you know, to answer your question, I think one of the things that, I believe, is the biggest thing was that I never lost sight of the vision that I had for the film, throughout the entire process. This meant that there were times of conflict, and when there were times of uncertainty, and there were times of doubt, you know, it was this reminded me of that first time, well, there's always a first time for something, right. So when you've cut your film, that feeling you feel what the first time you know, it's together is a feeling. The feeling when you first hold your script, from being on a computer to being in physical form, is a feeling. And it's remembering that was the thing that I think, ultimately paid the way forward. Because there were times where we was questioning, you know, do we cut more of the film out? Do we not have enough of this? Do we know, you know, all this down? And you have to get to the stage where you have to believe what your intuition is guiding you to do? You know, not necessarily the feeling side of oneself, but like, your actual intuition, your gut, the gut, the stomach, yeah. Yeah. And let that take you to where it's going to go. The one rule I set to myself is high execution value. That was it. Like, I was, like, I want to shoot it the best way I can, with the most I've got. So making that work in pre production was the key was like finding the right camera finding a lens package or lenses, I could get working with any diffusion, if I used any, really realizing that I had to research my ass off to be able to figure out the best way to communicate my message as a as a director. And then the rest, I would just say, you know, slowly took its way forward. And you know, we we spoke to a different people, some sales agents when we went with moving forward. We just ended up with Samuel Goldwyn, and that sort of really, I don't have any

Alex Ferrari 1:03:19
right place, right time. Right product. That's the way it looks. A year earlier. Maybe now a year from now, maybe no, but right now, it hit I call it the the El Mariachi factor, which is Robert hit at the right place, right time, right product, you know, a couple years after a couple years before, who knows, but that moment in time, all the stars aligned. And sometimes, a lot of times filmmakers don't understand that there is a tremendous amount of luck that is involved in what we do. But you need to help that luck along meaning you've got to be prepared for it when it shows up. Because if you just sat around going, think I'm gonna make a movie one day, I got this idea. It's never gonna happen. But you did it and didn't then these opportunities present themselves the universe does conspire to help you man. It I truly do believe that.

Leroy Kincaide 1:04:15
Absolutely. I mean, there's a definition of luck that I like to work with sometimes, and that is when preparation meets opportunity. Absolutely. You have to, you have to prepare yourself, like Whenever someone's gonna make a film, right? And you're going to set off on this journey. You don't know it's going to take six months or a year or two years or four years or however many years that you say you aim to get it done in this time. And if it works in that timeframe, because you got around for it because of certain things fabulous. We didn't predict 2020 was going to give us COVID We literally all shift of everything we had planned Literally every plan gone, eradicated as it was for everybody. Right? So it meant that we had to, you know, reverse engineer the end goal. Adapt, you know, be, you know, the element of Darwinism, the one who's most adaptable to change is going to be the one that can maybe last the longest, you have to learn to adapt and work these obstacles the best way, because I don't really see problems, more than I see solutions. Solutions are the key.

Alex Ferrari 1:05:32
Yeah, and as in, as I always, if you've heard the show, you know, I always like using the analogy of getting punched in the face, and that we all get punched in, we all get punched in the face in this business, and I don't care who you are, it's just as you go down the line a little bit, you pick up a couple more like that. First, I'm sure your first wrestling match is a lot different than your last. As far as how you took, here's how you how you took a fall. You know, how you all these kinds of how you took a role, how you did all this kind of stuff. As you get older, you start learning how to duck those punches, sometimes you can, you know, move a little bit, but you're going to get punches thrown at you. And it's about adjusting. It's about pivoting. It's about letting those things slide by you. And we all took a huge punch in 2020. And a lot of people didn't recover in there out of the game. And that's what I tried to do with this show is try to let everybody know, don't walk into this. Don't walk into the ring going. Wow, this is a cool place. Who's is that Mike Tyson? What? Why is he coming towards me? I don't. That's what but that's you laugh. But that's filmmakers. Man, I did it too. I was there, I got pushed out a bunch of times.

Leroy Kincaide 1:06:40
But you know that that's the this is the thing. This is why I mentioned the thing about earlier on about having a little butting of heads between myself and someone else just not seeing the right thing in Division. Sure. This is the stuff that if we can't work our way through the bad days, because you can't help but take certain elements personal because you they feel personal. Because you've got people involved, you're working on stuff, you want to go into business with the best interest and someone takes advantage. Unfortunately, the world is filled with people who just see opportunity, and they don't care about you. They just care about what they want. Of course, when you know, when you realize that, like you know, life is really what you make it but beyond what you make it. It's like giving bloody hell for trying to do the thing that you love to do. And who's who can say you can't make it happen. Who's to say you can't do these things? Because you know, we've all heard these stories of people that said, oh, you can't do this. I've even got one of those myself.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:47
What you mean? You mean, somebody told you you couldn't make a film? Shocking.

Leroy Kincaide 1:07:52
Shocking. I heard that my and I was just like, Yeah, but for you, you can't do that. Let me figure it out. And if I fail, I'd like to fail forwards on my terms, not someone else. Amen. Preach, I think. And, and that's the thing that like, the toughest thing with the filmmaking aspect of it is like that, we just got to know that there's a process and a price of entry. And that price of entry could be you make a film and it goes nowhere. It could be you lose a load of money, but then you make some money to make a new film. I don't know what everyone's process is going to be. But everybody's got their process myself. I had to ruin my arm to position myself mentally as a DP. Because that was that was the block of time where I feel I got the most in a three, four month period when when I was off work and off everything because of my injury or mom, that that block of time there had I'd not had that. We definitely wouldn't be having this conversation.

Alex Ferrari 1:08:58
You learn you had the time to educate yourself and test things and do things?

Leroy Kincaide 1:09:03
Dude Yeah, that that time there was in valuable.

Alex Ferrari 1:09:07
So I so I want to I just want to put I just wanted to put a spotlight on this because so many people don't understand this. When you had your house booked, everything was going you were like, I'm gonna go shoot this. And then this accident happens to your arm, which knocks you out for three or four months and pushes everything and changes everything the way you had it planned. When you look back, it was the best thing that could have happened to you in order to make this film as successful as it was but at the moment that that thing happened to you. All you could think about was the bad thing to happen. But I always come to believe that even when bad things happen in your journey, most of the time, if not all the time. When you look back you like you know it was probably good thing that that happened, you know might have shot you know, I needed this. I needed this happen to happen and if I didn't have that this wouldn't have happened. Like with me, I mean, you probably heard the story of me working with that mobster. And doing that movie, you know, almost making the $20 million movie with the mobster and stuff that was the worst time of my entire life. It's just it was devastated me. But looking back, I'm like, that's the that's the thing that made me. That's the shrapnel that is the voice on the microphone.

Leroy Kincaide 1:10:21
Absolutely. I mean, you know, these are character defining moments. Because, you know, when we've, if I go back when when I hurt my arm, I remember my first thought, my first thought was, it wasn't the fact that my bicep wasn't in its right place. Because that the shock of that happened, and that was gone. What was left after that fact, within the five minute window, while there was still the fight and stuff going on, and I was still sort of trying to figure it out, what was going on in the crowd of people was actually I was like, I'm no longer going to be able to hold this camera. And for me, it was more it is funny, but like, for me, it was like a life or death situation because I was like, this is my opportunity to, to build something that potentially can change the trajectory of or start the trajectory of change for the rest of my life. Now, it sounds quite ambitious, quite bolshie to say it, but I feel very much like, purpose is in me creating the film. So because I'm so connected, or was so connected, the injury wasn't the problem. It was like, Nah, I'm not gonna hold the camera, we're gonna lose the location, we were literally, we had the casting for the lead actress the day after, not, not any month. So whatever. After the following day, I had to go after being a hospital till five, or whatever I am, I had to go to the casting to cast our lead actress. And then I had to say to you, I'm really sorry, we've booked you to try and do this, if you're still available. Just let you know, we're gonna have to shoot in September, tore my bicep, and it's black and blues.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:18
So it's so it's so funny that you say that because I just had someone on the show, as of this recording hasn't come out yet. But it will come out in a couple next week, where their first thought they lost their house. They have seven kids. And they lost their house because they mortgaged it to make a movie that failed. And the only thought in his mind was like, oh my god, I'm never going to be able to make another movie again. Not that I've lost my house not like how am I going to provide for my family? The first thought that came to his mind was I'm never going to be able to do this again. And I call that the beautiful insanity. Because that is what we are. We're insane. But there's a beauty behind our insanity because we as filmmakers don't think clearly. Because because we're insane. We're insane. The whole process is insane. From the the indie filmmaker trying to make their first movie all the way to a $200 million blockbuster director or an Oscar winning director. There's an insanity to what we do. And you have to have that spark of insanity to be able to do what we do. But sometimes it goes too far. And that's when marriages or break up and families break up and I mean you desolate I've talked to homeless filmmakers before they got homeless afterwards. It's it's it this is not a game. But, but unfortunately, like I've said before, once you get bitten by that bug, it's with you. You can never get rid of it ever. You can't. It'll go dormant for 30 years, man, but it will pop its head up. Like when you're 65 and you're retired after being a doctor for 30 years and that's the safe route and you're like but you want I really want to do I really want to direct like like you like you're like I've wrestled address I've ever had to wrestle but what I really want to do is direct there is an insanity there to that process. And it's it's a beautiful insanity.

Leroy Kincaide 1:14:17
It's very beautiful. It's also weirdly very It's like being tortured as well. Because Because like I think that the you see this is the issue of creativity right? And now I'm someone who believe very much in creativity is very spiritual in the way that we connect to a vision an idea and we channel it from another Sure Sure sure. Astral plane or whatever. Now, when you have foresight to be able to see your vision you have to deal with the world doesn't see anything close to ever seen what you see that only way you can get that is you have to make it, you have to bring it out your head. Even when you're in process filming, you can show a little rush from the day. But it's not the movie because it's not edited. So the process of this is just in any art form, actually, or any form of creativity where you have to build a vision in your mind, to project it to the world, to give it to the world. To conceive something that nobody else sees, live with it day in, day out, month in, month out year in year out, and still have no one see, it is like absolute torture until you birth that little beauty. And once you've done it, the work is done. Next at a new level a new devil right. But while you're in that creative process, I gotta say like, it's a blessing and a curse, being creative. Because you're never at peace, you're always thinking of new ideas, feeling created creative vibes coming to you wanting a new idea. And our key is almost like being like a radio and tune into the frequency that we need to stay focused on. Because otherwise we're like a dog in front headlights. Right? We just

Alex Ferrari 1:16:13
Shiny lights. Yeah, shiny. Yeah, it's all shiny squirrel, and you just turn it you're like what's going on over there? No, you're absolutely right. And in, you're right, there is no peace, because we have 1000 ideas that 1000 times a second coming in. And we know that we unlike let's see musicians or painters who can go out and paint something in, you know, or go out and write a song, or play a song. That's a lot easier. timewise not craft wise, but timewise than making a film because film is arguably the most complicated art form on the planet. Because you've got to gather so many people you got to it, there's so many other disciplines other than the artistry, you know, the politics of it, the politics of it, the psychology of it, the business side of it, there's so many elements, it really does bring the whole package together of all the Arts and Business and the worst and the best of humanity comfortable from set. I mean, it's there's no question. So it is it is a it is a beautiful insanity that we live my friend. Now where can people where can people see the film?

Leroy Kincaide 1:17:21
So the film, the moment is, by the time that this is all out? It should be on iTunes, Amazon, Vudu, Google and a few other places that are not too familiar with in the States. But yeah, but it's on all the major platforms out there in the States. And we've got a UK deal coming soon. But I'm not too sure when that's coming out in the UK. But yeah, very cool, man. We just get told like this is where it's going. This is what's going on. Fabulous.

Alex Ferrari 1:17:49
As long as as long as the check shows up, brother and clears. That's all that matters.

Leroy Kincaide 1:17:56
You see, that's the bad news today. It's like here because you up. So you've had some beautifully interwoven stories where other filmmakers God bless them have come on and poured their heart out, like by getting stung, and completely ripped off. And it's like, it does make you feel very much like, damn, like, is it even possible to get a film out legitimately anymore without being taken advantage of, you know, it's such a, an area where there's so much mystique and so much like confusion, because us as artists and business, we know we're business entrepreneurs as well, we're building a business, but you know, when you finished your IP, you put it out, and then everyone wants to take that slice of the cake. leave you with, you know, cut the crumbs on the plate. But ultimately, it's like, when you hear of all these stories, I think it can almost like derail you from just aiming to just tell the story. But at the same time, I think be mindful of that there are individuals that do try to take advantage. You know, we had, we had one guy before we signed with anybody. He was contacting us from a random random email, pretending to be some Hollywood producer, right? So the film had just, like started doing around. We was like promoting it on like online and stuff. We just completed the movie, so no one had really seen and this guy had came out of the woodwork and was like, oh, you know, I'd like to take a look at your film. We've got loads of sales agents and people want to look at your movie, blah, blah, blah. And then we found out that this guy had been moonlighting as someone and actually been trying to sell our movie without us even talking to him. He was like, speaking to all these other production companies and distributors and whatnot about our films and he's repping our film. And it was just like

Alex Ferrari 1:20:05
All the time. I've heard that story. It's horrible. It's you know, it Look man, look, don't get me started, you know how I feel about predatory distributors while mentioned IV, you know, that's a key I will I mean, I will go off. It's one of my missions in life. It's one of my missions in life to help filmmakers as much as I can in that department. But the atrocities that I've heard of it's shocking and things that I even haven't even hit the air. Never been on the show, things I hear about in private, are maddening to the to the point where you're just like, I can't even believe this is legal. And it isn't most of the time. But yeah, I've heard people like, and then like, let's say a production company bought your movie, did he have the masters? He didn't have the Masters, right?

Leroy Kincaide 1:20:52
This guy, this guy didn't have, he didn't even

Alex Ferrari 1:20:54
It have a trailer. Right? So this guy was, so this guy was literally going to scam a production company, or another distribution outlet by saying aye, this, get the money and then say, oh, and then you're going to get in trouble. Because they're going to call you and go, Hey, where's our movie? I'm like, What are you talking about? Like, I've never even heard of, I've never heard of that. Do you see that kind of, there's just so much of that in on that side of the business. It's it's not for the faint of heart, man, this whole thing is not for the faint of heart, unfortunately. And it is my job to let everybody know that they are walking into a ring and there are going to be punches thrown at them. And and sometimes there's some MMA guys in there too. So that's even rougher. I'm gonna ask you a few questions asked all my guests are, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?

Leroy Kincaide 1:20:58
Listen, this thing, longest learn. Ultimately, I would say the lesson that has taken the longest to learn, truthfully, is to trust in my first intuitive nudge to do what I feel I should do. I think we second guess ourselves to the point of where we end up getting confused as people is general. And one of the things that I feel that this took me the longest to trust was what makes me think I could do said thing about doing said thing before, you know, this is a question we ultimately all face. But you somebody who's got have a first time, every time right? Sometimes first, whichever way you look at it. So realizing that I think once once I learn how to, you know, trust in it, let go of any doubt, and just run with it. You know, the last right is the the child of trusting that intuition. So I'd say if anybody's listening and would get something from it, like, you know, just, they could take from this, I would say just trust your intuition. And you know, don't never second guess yourself, like, you know, you get one life and you've got to take take the best swing you can, right, perhaps,

Alex Ferrari 1:23:17
Amen. Well, I appreciate I appreciate that, because that's something that's taken me a long, long time to, to hone is listening to the gut. Because there's something inside, I don't know what it is. But it's something that that tells you certain things. And if you can, if you can tune into that, you're gonna do a lot better than when you don't, don't let your head don't let your head get involved.

Leroy Kincaide 1:23:40
It's quite crazy, too. Because, you know, like, some some of my work that I've done aside from this is I've done a little bit of like, I want to say life coaching, but I've looked at a lot of like thinking into different results and altering shirt mindsets, right. And the mindset is the real thing. This is the thing where people become their self, or they die as a result before they're even dead. What do I mean by that is, you know, we create self sabotaging activities by default, because a lot of time we're born into a family system, environmental system, Gao system or whatever. And we have to break the cycle when ourself to realize the potential. Now, everybody's got potential. Everybody's got the ability to, I don't want to say be at whatever they want to be, because that's a bit too like, you know, sunshine and rainbows stuff, but ultimately, like, we can really exceed in potential but where we stop is because it myself, I talk to myself, because I'm not brought up in a environment where, you know, maybe having money was the thing, or maybe being a filmmaker was the thing. The thing that you look for is the thing that you resonate mostly with because it's, it's in you by default, right? So how do you break that, you have to break it by going against what your head usually tells you to do, oh, you want to do something creative, or what makes you think you can do that? In your head, you get that voice, just like well, and it's your, you're continuously fighting this inner battle. And you can conquer and harness the fact that whatever is going on inside your mind usually is something that's projected to you through years and years and years and years of conditioning. When you undo all that the potential for what you can be is endless. And that's one of the things that like, is the biggest thing that over life I feel that has really enabled me to trust in my intuition and to trust in my abilities. Actually, I get myself out of my own way. You know,

Alex Ferrari 1:25:56
That I'm gonna tell you that I'm gonna I'm gonna leave it at that man. That's a great way to end the conversation. But that was beautiful. So I wish you nothing but the best man continued success with your film. Thank you for being being so honest and forthcoming with your story. And hopefully, it this this conversation will inspire a few people out there. So thank you again for that. I appreciate it, man.

Leroy Kincaide 1:26:20
No worries, man. Thank you for having me.

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Paul Thomas Anderson: The Complete Guide to His Films & Techniques

Paul Thomas Anderson, Paul Thomas Anderson directing

In the larger film community, director Paul Thomas Anderson is widely considered to be one of the greatest living directors in America.  While his output is relatively small compared to his peers, each of his films is of such an impeccably high caliber that his impact on the medium is undeniable.  Affectionately called PTA by his fans, Anderson is held up by his contemporaries as a shining example of a true artist creating truly important work—high praise for a man who has yet to even win an Oscar for himself.

Filmmakers of my generation look to Anderson like the Film Brat generation looked to Stanley Kubrick—a god walking among us, an elder young enough to accessible, an ideal to which we aspire.  It should come as a surprise to no one that Anderson is a profound influence on my own work.  I had first heard rumblings of his greatness towards the end of high school, when all the artsy drama kids could talk about was 1999’s MAGNOLIA during its cult resurgence on DVD a few years after its release.

When I entered Emerson College as a second-semester freshman, my roommates sat me down to watch 1998’s BOOGIE NIGHTS, his second feature and his mainstream breakout.  I was instantly hooked.  Anderson was the first filmmaker where I could actually see how his work was constructed and subsequently desired to emulate it.  He was a role model and a guiding light in the crucial moment of my life when my paradigm of what film could be was radically blown open.

To later find out that Anderson too attended Emerson (albeit only for a year) was a moment of untold delight for me—validation that I was on the right path towards a rewarding, fulfilling career in filmmaking.

Born in 1970 in Studio City, California, Anderson is firmly a member of Generation X, whose filmmakers were raised on an endless diet of movies on videocassette.  The first to cut their teeth using cheap video and not expensive film, they could afford to make mistakes– and they made plenty of them.

Like his peers Steven Soderbergh and Quentin Tarantino, he broke out as a professional director in the heady days of 90’s independent film, catapulted into the limelight by a formidable debut at the Sundance Film Festival.  But unlike Tarantino and Soderbergh, Anderson came from a family already well-steeped in the entertainment industry.

  His father, Ernie Anderson, had been a late night horror TV show host under the name of Ghoulardi—a name that Anderson would later appropriate for his own production company.

At the age of eight, Anderson made his first home movie, and at twelve he began regularly making them with his father’s Betamax video camera.  His father encouraged his pursuits, unconsciously enabling them by providing the junior Anderson with a never-ending source of creative character fodder- Ernie’s own eccentric showbiz friends.  From this ragtag collection of aging hooligans, PTA drew inspiration and began to forge a distinctive voice for himself.

By age seventeen, Anderson felt ready to tackle his first “serious” project.  He recruited the talents of his father and his friends, and raised the money he needed to shoot by taking on a job as a birdcage cleaner.  He wanted to make a film about John Holmes, the legendary pornographer with a legendarily large package.  He was fascinated by the subculture of pornography, at least as it existed in the late 70’s when it was still relatively underground and unregulated.

Stylistically, he was influenced by Rob Reiner’s THIS IS SPINAL TAP (1984) and its comedic documentary conceit.  All of these elements converged to form THE DIRK DIGGLER STORY (1988), a mockumentary about the eponymous, John Holmes-inspired porn star with a large endowment rivaled only by an even larger ego.  Clocking in at 30 minutes (noticeably long for a first work), the short plays like an early blueprint for his breakout feature BOOGIE NIGHTS by featuring prototypes of characters and the same basic plot progression found in the full feature.

Anderson’s friend Michael Stein plays the role of Dirk Diggler, establishing the character as a combative, egotistical force of nature long before Mark Wahlberg got his hands on the part. Bob Ridgely, a friend of Ernie Anderson’s, plays the role of director Jack Horner (later inimitably played by Burt Reynolds in his career comeback).

Ridgley wrings a lot of emotion out of his role, despite hiding his eyes behind giant black sunshades. Other core characters from BOOGIE NIGHTS make their prototypical appearance here, like John C. Reilly’s Reed Rothchild in the form of an impossibly buff Eddie Delcore and Rusty Schwimmer’s Candy Kane, an early version of Julianne Moore’s Amber Waves.

HARD EIGHT (1996)

Screening his short film CIGARETTES & COFFEE at the 1993 Sundance Film Festival was a transformative event in director Paul Thomas Anderson’s career.  Not only was he invited to workshop his film in the Sundance Institute’s prestigious Directors Lab, but he was also approached by producer Robert Jones, who offered his assistance in expanding the film into a feature.

Naturally, Anderson went to work, developing his short into a larger story that concerned itself with an aging gambler who will do anything to hide his dark past from a pair of close friends he’s come to love as if they were his children. Anderson lovingly gave his story the name SYDNEY, like he was naming a child.  His experience in making the film, however, was anything but blissful.

He was hamstrung by Jones’ constant meddling and sizable ego, and further compromised by an inept distributor (Rysher Entertainment) that strong-armed his film away from him only to dump it into theaters with little fanfare.  That film exists now as HARD EIGHT (1996)—beloved with immense fervor by Anderson’ cult of followers but completely overlooked by the mainstream film community.  Last released as a bare-bones DVD in the early 2000’s, HARD EIGHT is in desperate need of a latent rediscovery and a restoration of Anderson’s original vision.

In a diner in the middle of the Nevada desert, an old man named Sydney (Philip Baker Hall) offers a forlorn-looking young man named John (John C. Reilly) a cigarette and a cup of coffee.  They get to talking, and John reveals that he’s just lost all his money in Vegas after going there in hopes of winning enough money to pay for his mother’s funeral.  Sydney takes pity on this poor soul, offering to take him to Reno and teach him a little trick that will net him some money at the casinos.

Two years later, John and Sydney are nearly inseparable—that is, until a streetwise cocktail waitress and sometimes-hooker named Clementine (Gwyneth Paltrow) enters their life.  Initially, the three form something of a family unit, with Sydney acting as the father figure.  However, Clementine risks everything when she makes a bloodied hostage out of a cheap john who won’t pay up.  Fearing the legal repercussions of Clementine’s actions, Sydney urges her and John to flee the city and lay low for a while.

At the same time, he’s approached by John’s friend Jimmy (Samuel L. Jackson), a smooth operator who knows a secret about Sydney’s dark past– a secret that would destroy Sydney’s little family unit forever.

Veteran character actor Philip Baker Hall finally steps into the limelight as Sydney, a paternal and patient soul.  He’s a helper of people, seemingly trying to atone for some great wrong he’s done in his life.  Hall brings a great deal of class and respectability to the film, expanding upon his role in CIGARETTES & COFFEE with an involved performance that might just be his best.  Known primarily for his Judd Apatow comedy gigs, John C. Reilly turns in a rare dramatic performance as the anxious, yet loyal John.

Reilly plays the character like a dog who doesn’t know any better, constantly screwing up and depending on Sydney to bail him out.  John is a lost young man, deeply in tune with his emotions but unable to properly express them.

Gwyneth Paltrow is convincing as the cynical, disillusioned cocktail waitress/hooker Clementine.  Considering her real-life personality, the role of Clementine is an extremely edgy one for her.  She courageously lets her makeup smear and doesn’t shy away from the inherent ugliness of the character’s personality.  As Jimmy, Samuel L. Jackson is dangerously slick and unpredictable.

The 90’s were Jackson’s heyday, seeing him turn in unforgettable performances for directors like Quentin Tarantino and Steven Spielberg.  His trademark pitch-black charm is present all through HARD EIGHT, providing yet another variation on that Jackson persona we all know and love.

Over the years, actors like Hall and Reilly have become a core part of Anderson’s repertory of performers.  A few cameos contained in HARD EIGHT illustrates the foundations of this repertory, like the appearance of Oscar-winning actor and regular Anderson collaborator Phillip Seymour Hoffman as a cocky craps player, and THE DIRK DIGGLER STORY’s Robert Ridgley turning up briefly as a schmoozing keno manager.

Anderson’s repertory isn’t just limited to the talent, it extends to the skilled craftsmen he employs to help bring his stories to life.  As his first feature, HARD EIGHT naturally sees the first instance of collaboration with several of them.  Robert Elswit serves as the cinematographer, shooting on Super 35mm film and helping to establish Anderson’s formalistic aesthetic.

The film is presented in the 2.35:1 aspect ratio, but it wasn’t shot in anamorphic, despite Anderson’s desire to do so (budget constraints).  The visual presentation applies the same approach used in CIGARETTES & COFFEE—a classical, economical style of photography that’s short on fuss and long on power.

The gaudy Reno setting and a low-key lighting scheme lends HARD EIGHT a loungy, neo-noir vibe.  This is also reflected in Anderson’s constantly moving camera, which is always precise and never frenetic.  He utilizes graceful dolly moves, using handheld cameras only sparingly to convey immediacy.  More notably, Anderson incorporates several Steadicam tracking shots that create a slick energy and sense of space.

While he would later use the Steadicam to more striking effect in his later films, Anderson keeps its usage in HARD EIGHT relatively simple, following Sydney as he walks through the casino floor, or as he approaches the fateful motel room that will shake up his adopted family unit forever.  Overall, Anderson chooses to cover a lot of his close-ups in profile, which subtly conveys a feeling of precision and thoroughness in his compositions.

HARD EIGHT also marks the first time that Anderson works with the musician Jon Brion in a score capacity.  Brion collaborates with Michael Penn to create a jazzy, cool-cat sound that accurately reflects both Reno and Sydney’s aged sophistication.  The film also contains the first instance of a particular tonal bell cue—dark and relentlessly foreboding.

It works so well that Anderson opts to use it again in his later works, unconsciously creating a musical bridge between his first few films.  A couple Christmas songs litter the soundtrack in order to give us a sense of the film’s wintery setting (because we’re in the desert, we wouldn’t know it’s December otherwise).  Furthermore, an Aimee Mann song shows up in the end titles, which is notable because Mann would later become a very important collaborator for Anderson in his 1999 feature MAGNOLIA.

Of all the themes that Anderson continually explores throughout his career, the theme of the family unit is the most apparent in HARD EIGHT.  The characters have all adopted each other in some fashion, as they all seek the comfort of companionship in a cold world.  Sydney and John share a father/son relationship, while John takes the very literal step of inducting Clementine into his family by marrying her.

Sydney’s unconditional love and uncompromising generosity towards his young charges is revealed to come from a terrible secret that threatens to undo their union, thus the theme gives the film its stakes and driving force.  The tone is very similar to CIGARETTES & COFFEE, with the first scene of HARD EIGHT lifted nearly directly from the short.  Nonetheless, Anderson does a fantastic job expanding the scope and changing the focus of his story while creating a consistent tone.

While the process of production was relatively painless, Anderson’s experience in post-production was a hard lesson in the corporate obstinance of the studio system.  He was faced with a difficult distributor in Rysher Entertainment, who wanted him to change the film’s name from SYDNEY to HARD EIGHT out of a fear that people would mistake the film for being about the city in Australia.

Anderson begrudgingly acquiesced to their demands, but they weren’t about to stop there. Producer Robert Jones became a constant source of headache, refusing to give his consent for Anderson’s request to place the credits at the end of the film instead of the beginning (despite the rest of the cast and crew being fine with it).  When Jones and the studio balked at Anderson’s 150-minute director’s cut, the young auteur refused to make any cuts and was subsequently fired.  Rysher took the film away and re-cut it.

Anderson’s original vision was validated when HARD EIGHT was accepted into Cannes’ Un Certain Regard program—on the condition that his director’s cut was the version to be screened.  After the festival, Anderson’s cut was never seen again, and the finished film languished on the shelf for two years after Rysher suddenly (and unsurprisingly) went belly-up.  Given how much of a mess Anderson’s experience in post-production on HARD EIGHT was, it’s something of a miracle that his debut turned out as assured and confident as it did.

A dismissive attitude towards the film hasn’t stopped the home video market from reclaiming HARD EIGHT as a lost treasure.  Most cinephiles agree that it’s an underrated gem of a film, a work on par with any of Anderson’s best.  While it exists today as an outdated transfer on a bargain bin DVD, HARD EIGHT marks the humble starting point of one of our greatest contemporary auteurs.

Until somebody (come on, Criterion) comes along and releases the director’s cut, we’ll just have to content ourselves with a watered-down, abridged version that provides fleeting glimpses into a brilliant young filmmaker finding his footing.


BOOGIE NIGHTS (1997)

For most filmmakers, every one has that singular film that serves as a flashpoint in their own individual development; a film that lets them see the whole medium of cinema through new eyes, informing and shaping everything that comes after it. My flashpoint arrived in the winter of 2005—I had just moved to Boston to attend Emerson College, and my film watching experience was limited to whatever was new in theatres or at Blockbuster.

One night, my new roommates sat me down to watch a film by a director I had never of heard of before—Paul Thomas Anderson. The film? Anderson’s second feature:BOOGIE NIGHTS (1997). I was transfixed; riveted by the subtle layers and subtext unfolding before me in such rich, dynamic and new ways. BOOGIE NIGHTS is one of my favorite films of all time—a film that I return to time after time for inspiration and guidance.

Despite having previously made the well-received HARD EIGHT in 1996, BOOGIE NIGHTS became Anderson’s breakout force and announced him to the film community as a bold, new force to be reckoned with. The success of HARD EIGHT had enabled access to the executives at New Line Cinema, who wanted to help him make his follow-up.

With these powerful forces at his side, Anderson turned to his 1988 short, THE DIRK DIGGLER STORY, for inspiration in creating the backbone of a new story. He fleshed this little nugget out into a sprawling meditation on the San Fernando Valley’s pornography industry over two decades of success and upheaval.

BOOGIE NIGHTS begins amidst the glittering disco lights of 1977, before the specter of AIDS took away the notion of free love without consequences and spurred heavy government regulation on the porn industry. Eddie Adams (Mark Wahlberg) is a young high school dropout from Torrance who buses into his nightly job as a bar-back for a disco club out in Reseda.

Eddie is a quiet, unassuming boy, save for his hidden talent: an abnormally large penis, which he uses to generate extra income by masturbating in front of strangers for money. One night, he meets Jack Horner (Burt Reynolds), a director of exotic adult films who invites Eddie into his world with a friendly smile and a firm handshake. Eddie eagerly takes Horner up on his offer, quickly ingratiating himself into the larger-than-life world of pornography and finding a close-knit family in the group of collaborators that Horner has assembled around himself.

Eddie takes the stage name Dirk Diggler, and with his inherent natural talent and sexual prowess, soon takes the entire operation into the stratosphere. Diggler and company ride high through the remainder of the 70’s, but a murder/suicide committed in Jack’s house on New Year’s Eve 1979 welcomes the 80’s with a foreboding, bloody omen.

The dawn of a new decade also heralds the arrival of a new technology that promises to upend the industry as they know it: videotape. As video becomes more commonplace, Jack Horner and company find their artistic integrity compromised, and their personal lives significantly altered for the worse. As Dirk strays increasingly further from Jack’s clan, he risks destroying himself upon the very altar of his own success.

Despite dealing with such lurid subject matter, Anderson finds a peculiar kind of dignity and grace within his characters. He shows us that pornographers are people too—just as capable of real love as we are. Before BOOGIE NIGHTS, Wahlberg was “Marky Mark”, a young rapper with a few unimpressive film credits to his name, but the role of Dirk Diggler established him as a genuine acting force that persists to this day.

Reynolds is inspired casting as the patriarch of his little porno family/empire. Like John Travolta in Quentin Tarantino’sPULP FICTION (1994), Reynolds’ against-type performance resulted in a newfound cultural relevancy after a long spell of waning popularity, eventually culminating in an Oscar nomination for his performance. Ironically, Reynolds hated the role and didn’t get along with Anderson during filming. He even went so far as to fire his agent for recommending the role to him.

Julianne Moore counters the two-fisted machismo of Wahlberg and Reynolds as Amber Waves, Horner’s wife and a mother figure to Dirk. She’s heartbroken over her real son being taken away from her by child services, so she turns to Dirk for a surrogate relationship—one that becomes incestuously sexual. Moore turns in one of her most beautiful performances here as a conflicted, inherently sad woman with deep reservoirs of unconditional love, walking away with an Oscar nomination for her efforts.

BOOGIE NIGHTS also serves as an establishment of Anderson’s close-knit repertory of performers—actors who have come to regularly appear in his films throughout his career. These include Luis Guzman (as a nightclub owner and pornstar-wannabe), John C Reilly (as Dirk’s doggishly loyal friend and co-performer), William H Macy (as the disgruntled, cuckolded assistant director), Ricky Jay (as the droll cinematographer), and Philip Baker Hall (as Floyd Gondolli, a smug rival of Jack Horner’s who personifies the encroaching malevolence of videotape).

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On the female side, there’s Melora Walters as a sweet and naïve porn actress, and Heather Graham as the plucky, somewhat-ditzy Rollergirl. Further rounding out the cast is Don Cheadle as urban cowboy Buck Swope, Thomas Jane as cocky bad boy Todd Parker, and Bob Ridgley, who starred as Jack Horner in THE DIRK DIGGLER STORY and makes his last film appearance before his death here as The Colonel, an eccentric dandy who finances Jack’s films.

And last but not least, there’s Phillip Seymour Hoffman, Anderson’s closest acting collaborator who tragically passed away last week. He left behind an enduring legacy of masterful performances, one of which is found in BOOGIE NIGHTS’ Scotty J, a sexually confused and awkward boom operator who carries a one-sided torch for Dirk.

BOOGIE NIGHTS is the work of a young, ambitious filmmaker with bottomless reserves of zeal and talent. The tone is a distinctive blend of the multiple-perspective affectations of Robert Altman and the volatile, kinetic energy of Martin Scorsese. HARD EIGHT’s cinematographer, Robert Elswit, returns to shoot the film in the true anamorphic aspect ratio of 2.35:1 (achieved this time via actual anamorphic lenses and not a workaround like Anderson and Elswit had done previously).

Bob Ziembecki’s authentic period production design never reads as over-the-top and kitschy, instead popping from the frame in appropriate blasts of psychedelic color. The brilliant performances and Anderson’s bold narrative are aided by a constantly-moving camera that glides through the various scenes like an unstoppable rollercoaster. Even from an early age, Anderson has utilized the camera more confidently and audaciously than any of his peers, effortlessly mixing Steadicam, dolly, and handheld shots into a coherent whole.

Anderson’s use of the Steadicam in particular is worth noting, choosing to cover many of the scenes in long, traveling shots. The most notable of this is BOOGIE NIGHTS’ opening shot, which is, bar none, one of the best openings in recent film history. We start on a neon marquee flashing the film’s title, and then crane down to reveal a lively street scene that establishes both the setting and the time period.

Then, without skipping a beat, the camera operator steps off his platform on the crane and then enters Guzman’s nightclub as Anderson introduces us to all the major players of the story in one unbroken take, a la Altman’s iconic opening to THE PLAYER (1992). Of course, all this virtuoso camerawork wouldn’t be nearly as effective without editor Dylan Tichenor to stitch it all together. The film runs nearly three hours long, but if feels half that length thanks to Tichenor’s breathless pacing and exuberant sense of energy.

A major commercial selling point of BOOGIE NIGHTS was the music—specifically, the glut of 1970’s and 80’s pop hits that likely moved more copies of the soundtrack CD than the actual film itself. Anderson’s ear for music is spot-on, using several well-known cues in interesting ways that fill out the reality and authenticity of the period. The indulgence of the era is reflected in the glitzy needledrops, oftentimes creating an association between song and picture that becomes forever joined in the mind.

One instance of this is a scene where Alfred Molina’s drug dealer character sings along to Rick Springfield’s “Jessie’s Girl” during a particularly foreboding business exchange. It’s an unbearably tense sequence and a master-class in direction even without the music, but its inclusion transforms the scene into a truly transcendent moment.

For the score, Anderson recruits HARD EIGHT’s Michael Penn, who bases his musical palette around an inspired conceit—a carnival. The film opens against black with a somber dirge that sounds like a sad clown flailing around under the big top, a theme that reprises itself later on as a motif signifying Jack Horner’s little family unit.

The strange, carnivalesque nature of Penn’s score reflects Anderson’s bizarre, yet touching display of humanity while highlighting the hidden similarities between two decidedly different performance-based occupations.

Several of Anderson’s thematic preoccupations are present here, coalescing into an identifiable set of tropes. As a member of the first generation to come up under the rise of video, Anderson’s incorporation of the medium is more involved than any other filmmaker of his ilk.

In BOOGIE NIGHTS, the arrival of video is a major plot point, throwing the industry into a state of massive flux and becoming the fulcrum of conflict between Reynolds and Hall’s characters. Videotape highlights the characters as ideological opposites, fighting a war that pits economics vs. artistry—a conflict that can be argued to encapsulate the film industry as a whole.

To the characters of BOOGIE NIGHTS, video is a harbinger of doom and betrayal. Its arrival coincides with the fall of Dirk Diggler and Jack Horner, the fallout on their professional and personal lives being akin to a devastating meteor, or a nuclear bomb. BOOGIE NIGHTS shows remarkable prescience in its insights into video’s role in the video arts. We’re still having the film vs. video argument today, although now the two mediums are virtually indistinguishable from each other.

Because Anderson’s films very rarely have life or death stakes, the driving force and the emotional drama stems from the theme of family—specifically the threat of abandonment or loss. BOOGIE NIGHTS places this dynamic at the core of its story, presenting Horner’s filmmaking crew as a legitimate family, sharing in each other’s big life moments and cheering them on at weddings and awards shows.

Anderson also shows us how Dirk Diggler’s abandonment of his adopted family of pornographers leads to ruin. At the end of the day, he saves himself by crawling back in shame to Horner’s patriarch figure. In ending his story in this fashion, Anderson has created a prodigal son fable for the twentieth century. It’s a parable that illustrates the conceit that tragedy will ultimately befall those who choose to permanently turn away from family.

Anderson’s films often set their stories in his home state of California, and BOOGIE NIGHTS—perhaps more so than his other works—could not have taken place anywhere else but the Golden State. The San Fernando Valley, just north of Los Angeles, has served as the epicenter of the porn industry since its inception. Just like porn plays the redheaded, swept-under-the-rug stepchild to the Hollywood film industry, so too does the Valley sit offset from Los Angeles, stigmatized and dismissed because of its sleepy, suburban airs.

Like it or not, the porn industry is very much a part of southern California’s cultural heritage, so who better to paint its portrait than Anderson, the great cinematic recorder of California himself.

BOOGIE NIGHTS is also perhaps the most frank look at another of Anderson’s key recurring themes, that of sex dependence. HARD EIGHT and BOOGIE NIGHTS both flirt with sex as a paid profession: the former’s emotional tensions that stem from the troubles of Gwyneth Paltrow’s weary hooker Clementine contrasts with the latter’s celebration of sex on camera as an act of liberation and expression.

This also highlights a strange double standard when it comes to paid sex—the presence of the camera, for whatever reason, is the final arbiter between what is legal and what is not. The characters ofBOOGIE NIGHTS come to depend on their sexuality, as if it were a drug. Towards the end of the film, Dirk Diggler is back to where he started, reduced to jerking himself off in front of strangers for a couple bucks.

For others, like Cheadles’ Buck Swope, their past as porn stars hangs like a noose around their necks, impeding their progress in real world pursuits like starting a family or taking out a business loan.

BOOGIE NIGHTS caused quite a stir when it released, with high praise for prestigious film festivals like Toronto and New York leading to three Oscar nominations (one of which was a Screenplay nod for Anderson himself). The film was a breakout hit, its success arguably fueled by a bout of 70’s nostalgia that was pervading pop culture at the time. Thankfully, BOOGIE NIGHTS’ legacy has outshined the trends of it day, enduring to become one of the best films of its decade and ensuring Anderson’s future as a major new talent on the scene.


MUSIC VIDEOS & SHORTS WORKS (1997-1999)

During the period between the release of his breakout feature BOOGIE NIGHTS (1997) and his sprawling follow-upMAGNOLIA (1999), director Paul Thomas Anderson branched out into other forms of cinematic expression.  He did what many filmmakers do between features to pay the bills: shoot commercials and music videos.

However, unlike other directors, it can be argued that he wasn’t exactly doing for-hire work.  Almost all of his short-form work from these years can be tracked to some kind of investment in his feature work or his personal life.

MICHAEL PENN: “TRY”

For instance, his first music video was made for BOOGIE NIGHTS composer Michael Penn to promote his single “TRY”.  The video was shot almost entirely in secret, with Anderson, Penn, and co-producer JoAnne Sellar stealing away during BOOGIE NIGHTS postproduction for a couple hours.  They shot in what is allegedly the longest hallway in America, located in downtown Los Angeles.  The video follows Penn in one long Steadicam take as he sings to camera and marches through various vignettes.

The piece is indicative of Anderson’s mastery of the camera and sense of movement, as well as his confidence with a Steadicam rig.  Complex moves are pulled off with a dance-like grace that makes the entire piece look effortless.  Anderson is known to be somewhat of a mischievous director, and “TRY” follows suit with a cameo by his close friend and collaborator, the late Phillip Seymour Hoffman, as a slobby sound recordist.

FIONA APPLE: “ACROSS THE UNIVERSE”

The success of BOOGIE NIGHTS led Anderson into an echelon of celebrity that was previously unknown to him.  He started dating singer/songwriter Fiona Apple, a relationship that birthed a small run of enchanting music videos.  The first of these was for Apple’s cover of the Beatles’ “ACROSS THE UNIVERSE”, a track commissioned for director Gary Ross’ film PLEASANTVILLE (1998).

Anderson adopted PLEASANTVILLE’s black and white midcentury aesthetic for his video, albeit with a twist.  Conceived as a series of long takes, Apple sings to camera while hooligans in letterman jackets trash a diner in slow-motion around her.

“ACROSS THE UNIVERSE” is a deceptively simple piece, with expertly-executed camera movements that give no trace of the complicated rigging and blocking required to achieve such shots.  For instance, in the opening shot we track in directly on Apple, but we don’t see the camera in the mirror behind her (when common logic dictates we should).

The piece is filled with little “how’d they do that” flourishes like this, and like Michael Penn’s “TRY” before it, includes a cameo from one of Anderson’s repertory performers in the form of John C. Reilly as a suit stealing music from the jukebox.

FLAGPOLE SPECIAL

For 1998’s RET Inevitable 1 Festival in New York, Anderson was commissioned to make a seventeen minute short titled FLAGPOLE SPECIAL.  The short apparently works as an indirect groundlaying for the Frank TJ Mackey character played by Tom Cruise in Anderson’s MAGNOLIA.

Based on a random conversation Anderson found on an old audiotape, FLAGPOLE SPECIAL was shot on digital video and features John C Reilly and Chris Penn riffing on their frustration with women and coming up with plans on how they would “Seduce and Destroy” them.  As of this writing, it is publicly unavailable for viewing.

FIONA APPLE: “FAST AS YOU CAN”

In 1999, Anderson made his second music video for Fiona Apple, for her song “FAST AS YOU CAN”.  It’s a much simpler piece, with Fiona performing straight to camera, locked into very precise compositions.  While the video is straightforward and uncomplicated, Anderson does add various visual obstructions to the frame, like smudges and smears on the lens in a bid to make things a little more interesting.

FIONA APPLE: “LIMP”

Anderson’s third video for Apple covered her song, “LIMP”, and takes place in a dark mansion as a lovesick Apple roams the house, unable to sleep.  The piece is full of the graceful, fluid camerawork that Anderson is known for, but he counters the elegance by chopping it up into a series of staccato, rapid-fire edits as the song’s intensity builds.


 MAGNOLIA (1999)

During my senior year of high school, I spent a grand majority of my time in the halls of the campus’ performing arts center. The eclectic mix of creativity and awkward hormonal clashes was endlessly fascinating to me, no doubt because it reflected what was churning inside of me. Within the rigid and confining social structures of high school, it was the one place I could go where I could truly be myself.

Towards the end of my time there, the more literary-minded and illuminated types began talking earnestly about their love for this 1999 film called MAGNOLIA—I film I had never heard of. I even acted in a one-act play whose author made no attempt to hide how much it had been influenced by the film.

I never got around to seeing the film myself until my first semester at Emerson College, where I was introduced to director Paul Thomas Anderson’s work by way of BOOGIE NIGHTS (1997). When I finally sat down to watch MAGNOLIA, it became immediately apparent to me that I was watching a masterwork from a highly confident director who was wielding his camera with a degree of energy and power unlike anything I had ever seen before.

The runaway success of BOOGIE NIGHTS resulted in New Line Cinema gifting Anderson the opportunity to do anything he wanted as his next project. Knowing he’d never again be in this enviable position, Anderson decided to go for broke and make a passion project that he described as the All-Time Great San Fernando Valley film. In plotting out his story, Anderson tapped into great reservoirs of creativity and inspiration.

What started off as a small, off-beat character piece soon blossomed into an all-encompassing statement on loneliness, regret, and chance in a small patch of suburb just north of bustling Los Angeles. MAGNOLIA sees Anderson step ever more firmly into Robert Altman territory by weaving together several disparate threads and slowly pulling them taut to reveal a tightly-woven tapestry of life, love and loss.

Simply put, it is the magnum opus of the first phase of Anderson’s career, capping off a long fascination with sprawling ensemble-based stories.

The central conceit of MAGNOLIA is that the film’s story unfolds along a stretch of the titular street, located in the San Fernando Valley—purportedly all within a span of a few square miles. The idea is to communicate the range of humanity that can occur in such a small amount of space, and how we’re more connected than we think. At the center of the film is an awkward romance between Claudia Gator (Melora Walters), a nervous wreck of a woman who’s been hollowed out by excessive drug use and several emotional trauma.

After playing her music so loudly that the neighbors call the cops, she’s visited by John C Reilly’s Officer Jim Kurring—a gentle giant who finds in Claudia a beacon of hope and a potential cure for his romantic ailments. Claudia’s father, venerated game show host Jimmy Gator (Phillip Baker Hall), also tries to reach her, struggling to find some redemption from the sins of his past as he loses a fight with cancer.

A short distance away, Donnie Smith (William H. Macy), a former child genius and famous contestant on Gator’s game show, is struggling to hold on to his job at a local furniture outlet so he can pay for braces he doesn’t need, all to impress a male bartender that’s caught his eye.

As all of this is going down, an old man named Earl Partridge (Jason Robards) lies on his deathbed, attended to by his nurse Phil Parma (Phillip Seymour Hoffman). Earl’s wife Linda (Julianne Moore) storms about town trying to make her own wrongs right in the wake of the realization that only now has she come to actually love her husband.

And last but not least, there’s Frank TJ Mackey (Tom Cruise), Earl’s estranged son and a chauvinistic pick-up guru/artist hawking an allegedly “foolproof” seduction technique, bound for an emotional reckoning of his own.

As MAGNOLIA unfolds, all these story threads draw closer together; the major events rippling like waves through the narrative. Destiny has intertwined their fates. MAGNOLIA explores ideas about chance and coincidence, comparing them against a larger, pre-determined arc of the universe. In a move that’s both inspired and utterly baffling, Anderson uses a counterintuitive image to state his case: a random, inexplicable downpour of frogs, materializing as if from nowhere and hurtling towards the earth with biblical fury.

The film goes to great pains to suggest that these seemingly random events might just be the opposite, and that our fates may indeed by pre-ordained and unforeseeable as a sudden hailstorm of amphibians.

While an expanded budget allows for higher-profile actors, Anderson culled his cast mostly from his pool of BOOGIE NIGHTS alumni. Reilly, Walters, Hall, Macy, Hoffman and Moore all deliver some of their best work, thanks to an unwavering dedication to Anderson’s vision and an eagerness to play against type.

MAGNOLIA is perhaps the most definitive example of Anderson’s company of actors, featuring supporting performances from Luis Guzman as an irritable and impatient contestant on Jimmy Gator’s game show, Ricky Jay as the show’s producer and the omniscient narrator during the film’s prologue and epilogue sequences, Alfred Molina as Macy’s Persian furniture store boss, and even Thomas Jane as a young Jimmy Gator.

Of the new talent, Robards gives a heartbreaking performance in his final film role as a man besieged by regret at the end of his life, and Cruise was nominated for an Oscar in what is generally considered a career-best performance as the scene-stealing chauvinist who uses bravado and machismo to bury his crippling daddy issues. MAGNOLIA is the kind of film that lives or dies off of its performances, and thankfully the collective efforts of Anderson’s brilliantly-chosen cast helps the piece soar to exhilarating heights.

MAGNOLIA is not as visually stylized as Anderson’s previous work, but he still manages to achieve a larger-than-life feel thanks to returning cinematographer Robert Elswit’s virtuoso camerawork. The film’s aesthetic is textbook Anderson: a 2.35:1 anamorphic frame given vigor and color by a mix of confidently executed dolly, crane, Steadicam, and handheld compositions.

Like BOOGIE NIGHTS before it, MAGNOLIA uses long tracking shots to convey space and time, pulling its characters along their cosmic journeys. Elswit and Anderson find the opportunity to experiment with different film stocks and cameras in MAGNOLIA’s bookending “chance or fate” sequences—a highlight being Anderson’s use of an authentic, hand-cranked Pathe camera to simulate the look of old silent pictures.

With MAGNOLIA, Anderson’s regular editor Dylan Tichenor has his work cut out for him in keeping track of all these disparate story threads. If Sergei Eisenstein’s montage theory established how editing could be used to tie two separate events into continuous time and space together, then Tichenor’s work on MAGNOLIA serves as the arguable evolution—interweaving the sweeping emotions of human experience into a cosmic tapestry.

Anderson and Tichenor’s edit plays like the film equivalent of a symphony, with harmonies and choruses organized into distinct movements. The movements themselves are distinguished via an inspired intertitle conceit that, instead of conveying the passage of time, notates changes in weather and humidity. It’s an interesting idea that we’ll certainly never the likes of again, further evidencing Anderson’s unique worldview.

MAGNOLIA is the first of Anderson’s features to not feature the work of composer Michael Penn, but he does retain musical continuity in Jon Brion and Penn’s wife, Aimee Mann. Brion’s score in particular is worth singling out, as he has created a brooding suite of orchestral cues that are at once both foreboding and elegiac, giving the necessary weight to the burden that Anderson’s characters must carry.

The score ducks and weaves through the piece, oftentimes playing against or running under diagetic source tracks from Mann and Supertramp. The effect is disharmonious, but in a good way, further solidifying the film’s mosaic conceits. Mann is a huge vocal identity within the soundtrack, providing several key songs such as the showstopping “Wise Up”. The song is incorporated in a strikingly original way, playing over a sequence in which the characters sing along to it, staged within their various individual vignettes.

The result is nothing less than one of the most unexpected and memorable moments in recent film history.

The medium of video plays a huge role in shaping Anderson’s worldview, like it does for several of filmmakers in his generation. However, his treatment of the format undergoes something of an evolution throughout his filmography. In BOOGIE NIGHTS, video was a disruptive, transgressive advancement that held malevolent implications for its characters.

By the present-day narrative of MAGNOLIA, video had become commonplace and commodified. Its power harnessed by people like Frank TJ Mackey as a sales tool— a slick, well-lit means to nefarious ends.

Mackey’s “Seduce And Destroy” operation is indicative of another of Anderson’s thematic fascinations, that of sex dependence. Mackey employs a tactical, scorched earth approach to seduction, viewing women purely as targets to be eliminated with the ballistics rocket below his belt. As his character arc plays out, it becomes quite clear that this militaristic, highly-disciplined and aggressive approach to sex is a crutch he leans on, a shovel to bury deep-seated rage about his past and his family.

Indeed, several of MAGNOLIA’s characters’ dramatic troubles stem from sex in some manner—Reilly and Walters’ fumbling romance, Robards’ abandonment of the love of his life for a fleeting affair, or Hall’s continuing infidelity and the implied sexual abuse of his daughter. MAGNOLIA’s thematic exploration of sex dependence overlaps with his exploration of family dynamics, digging deep into his characters’ insecurities and faults to find an inherent desire for the comfort of home and family.

Like any wildly ambitious film, people didn’t quite know what to make of MAGNOLIA when it was released. The film didn’t do well at the box office, but critics hailed it as a profound expansion of Anderson’s directorial skill. People were just as quick to deem it a masterpiece as they were to deride it as an overindulgent failure. Regardless, MAGNOLIA went on to considerable awards seasons success, winning the prestigious Golden Bear award at that year’s Berlinale as well as an Academy Award nod for Anderson’s screenplay.

Now that over ten years has passed, MAGNOLIA’s legacy as one of the 90’s best films is assured. It is an undeniable technical triumph, and a product of a confident virtuoso aesthetic that, for all its complications and flourishes, never loses sight of the big picture.


MUSIC VIDEOS & TV WORK (1999-2000)

With the release of 1999’s MAGNOLIA, director Paul Thomas Anderson had arguably reached the peak of what he could do with his particular stylistic conceits. As he developed ideas for his next feature project, Anderson dove right back into the world of music videos and short-form work as a way to keep his directorial skills active and engaged.

AIMEE MAN: “SAVE ME” (1999)

Like the music video for Michael Penn’s “TRY” following BOOGIE NIGHTS in 1997, Anderson created a tie-in music video for one of MAGNOLIA’s musical muse, Aimee Mann. The track, “SAVE ME”, appears during the closing scene of MAGNOLIA, and was written specifically for the film. To reflect his, Anderson and Mann settled on an idea that would recreate key moments from MAGNOLIA in motionless tableau form, while integrating Mann singing towards camera in the background.

Anderson’s fingerprints are all over this video, with a camera that continuously dollies forward on Mann with a creeping confidence. He also throws in a little visual variety by way of moving the furniture and set dressing around in elegant, almost impossible ways that reveal the hidden artifice of each vignette. “SAVE ME” is a simple, yet moving little music video—and arguably Anderson’s most popular.

FIONA APPLE: PAPER BAG (2000)

The turn of the millenium found Anderson and then-girlfriend Fiona Apple collaborating on a music video once again, this time for her song “PAPER BAG”. The video finds Apple performing at a bar inside of an expansive lobby, surrounded by little boys dressed as grown men. Anderson shoots wide to feature the location’s beautiful architecture, as well as to showcase elaborate old-school musical choreography.

The piece is again an instance of Anderson’s elegant camerawork, incorporating the same whip-pan technique that he made a motif of in MAGNOLIA.

SNL: “FANATIC” (2000)

By the year 2000, Anderson’s work began to shift away from the sprawling, dynamic style that had made his name and towards experimental explorations into comedy and other genres. The first of such projects was done almost as a lark– less of a serious, cerebral project and more of a fun diversion for him and his friends at Saturday Night Live. The piece is a spoof on MTV’s show “FANATIC”, where a mega-fan gets the chance to meet his/her object of worship.

Anderson recruits SNL cast member Jimmy Fallon as “Fanatic’s” overly-aggro host, who tracks down Anna Nicole Smith’s biggest fan (played brilliantly by Ben Affleck in a role that lets him eschew his romantic leading man persona and ham it up with a false set of horrible teeth and giant braces). While Anderson’s “Fanatic” is undoubtedly a fun little side-project, in an oblique way it still fits naturally amidst his larger body of work.

The handheld video format and the reality TV conceit echoes THE DIRK DIGGLER STORY’s presentation and comedic tone, while Affleck’s quest to make Anna Nicole Smith his mother echoes Anderson’s thematic explorations of family and the search for home.

THE JON BRION SHOW (2000)

During this time, Anderson’s regular composer Jon Brion was trying to launch a new music-oriented variety show, appropriately titled THE JON BRION SHOW. Brion was unsuccessful in finding a home for the show at VH1, so Anderson stepped in to finance and direct a new pilot. While three episodes were produced in total, only the one featuring the late Elliot Smith has been made publicly available.

THE JON BRION SHOW follows a pretty standard, generic variety show format, utilizing multiple video cameras to cover Brion as he guides us through the evening’s playlist. The piece is a very rough, yet fascinating look into Anderson’s interests outside of just filmmaking, as well as a nostalgic little time capsule of a very particular sound that flourished during the turn of the millennium.

While Anderson’s output during these years is relatively small, he was able to capitalize on the popularity afforded to him byMAGNOLIA’s modest success with a string of experimental works that allowed him to broaden his scope and expand his aesthetic.


PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE (2002)

By 2002, director Paul Thomas Anderson had gained a reputation for long, sprawling features with multiple points of view. He had arguably reached his personal apex with this style in 1999’s MAGNOLIA, and began feeling a desire to subvert his critics and move away from the types of films that had made his name. During interviews, Anderson began to vocally express his wish to make a short romantic comedy with Adam Sandler—a wish that was laughed off by most critics who knew of his mischievous nature.

So imagine their surprise when he actually follows through on his promise with 2002’s PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE, an off-the-rails romantic comedy inspired by the real-life story of a California man who exploited a loophole in a Healthy Choice/frequent-flyer promotion for personal gain.

On paper, a rabidly quirky Adam Sandler vehicle directed by an arthouse auteur would read as a surefire failure, but Anderson’s fourth feature finds him feeding off the energy of a particularly experimental phase, making for the shortest, most idiosyncratic (but also the most charming) film of his career.

PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE follows Sandler’s Barry Egan, a neurotic entrepreneur of novelty hotel plungers and a man prone to volatile emotional outbursts and crippling anxiety. Despite being surrounded by seven overbearing and suffocating sisters, Barry is a profoundly lonely man who takes a simple pleasure in running a modestly successful business.

One night, a misplaced yearning for human connection leads Barry to dial up a phone sex line, inadvertently exposing himself to a ruthless extortion scheme that thrives off the guilt of so-called “perverts” like himself. As he battles with fraud, he’s introduced to the calm yin to his powderkeg yang: a pretty Englishwoman named Lena (Emily Watson). She’s socially awkward like he is, and their off-kilter chemistry brings out an adventurous side to each other that they never knew they had.

On top of all this, Barry has also stumbled upon a loophole in a frequent-flyer promotion run by Healthy Choice that nets him an insane amount of airline miles at the cost of several pudding packs. Emboldened by his newfound love towards Lena and flailing rage at his fraudulent tormentors, Barry sets about collecting as many pudding packs as he can to rack up miles and take control of his life.

Sandler, one of the most polarizing figures in Hollywood, is rightfully vilified for his dumb, juvenile slapstick comedies. To the complete surprise of the stuffy film elite, Sandler’s performance in PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE turned out to be one of 2002’s best—his conveyance of a dark, complicated soul is routinely hailed as his finest hour.

Watson’s casting is equally inspired, her gentle eccentricities becoming the perfect foil to Sandler’s tenuous grasp on his temper. The reliable stock company of actors that Anderson had cultivated in his previous three features is largely absent from PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE, save for the late, brilliant Philip Seymour Hoffman as the cocky sex-line extortionist and Luis Guzman as Barry’s loyal, if somewhat dimwitted, business partner.

Much like the title suggests, PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE is a strange brew of discordant influences and tones, taking conventional rom-com tropes and filtering them through Anderson’s unique worldview. Cinematographer Robert Elswit returns to lend some visual consistency to an otherwise-radically different project for the director.

The pair continues their use of the anamorphic 2.35:1 aspect ratio, as well as dynamic Steadicam camerawork and bold, deliberate compositions. Anderson also builds upon his core aesthetic with several expressionistic visual abstractions, like unmotivated lens flares, harsh highlights, silhouettes, and animated watercolor-painting interludes courtesy of video artist Jeremy Blake.

Production Designer William Arnold also returns, creating a bright, yet drab, every-world for the characters to inhabit. Arnold utilizes a red, white, and blue color palette to convey Anderson’s curious vision. A film’s color palette should be an active participant in telling the story, and Arnold’s work accomplishes it with a minimum of fuss.

The white, colorless walls of Barry’s apartment and warehouse suggest a bland, directionless existence, so when Barry shows up in a bright blue/indigo suit, the act is indicative of Barry opening himself up to the potential of excitement and change. Watson’s Lena appears primarily in a bright red dress, nicely complementing Barry’s own wardrobe with the color of passion—a passion that will fully consume Barry and give him the necessary courage to overcome his obstacles.

Anderson’s musical choices also mark a direct shift away from his past work while still maintaining a degree of continuity. He retains the services of composer Jon Brion, who utilizes the distinctive sound of the harmonium to create a discordant electronic sound that bubbles furiously and echoes Barry’s severe internal stress. Indeed, watching PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE can be a very stressful watching experience, mainly due to Brion’s jittery, unrelenting score.

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Instead of the wall-to-wall jukebox approach that Anderson employed in his previous films, Anderson employs a much more disciplined approach to his needledrops. He limits them to just one: Harry Nillson’s “He Needs Me”, a rather strange little ballad that captures Anderson’s darkly whimsical tone and becomes the de facto theme song to the piece. PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE is the end of an era for Anderson, with the film being his last collaboration with Brion (as of this writing).

In Anderson’s subsequent hiatus from filmmaking during mid-2000’s, Brion became one of the unfortunate casualties of the director’s artistic reinvention. I don’t imagine that this could be attributed to bad blood between the two, but rather an amicable parting of ways as the result of Anderson’s evolution of style requiring a sound far different than what Brion could deliver.

Despite creating such a radical stylistic experiment for himself, Anderson can’t help but incorporate his major thematic fascinations into PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE’s story. The film is fundamentally a love story, and love stories are fundamentally about the search for a mate—- with the creation of a family being the larger implication. Barry’s search for a mate, personified in Lena, is a way for him to escape his own family of seven emasculating sisters and become the head of a new one.

PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE’s love story also serves as a convenient conduit for Anderson to explore ideas toward sexuality by way of Barry’s varied responses to his newfound feelings. He confuses sex for love, initially trying to alleviate his loneliness in the companionship of a phone-sex line girl. Their conversation is hollow and transactional despite being laced with aggressively sexual dirty talk.

Contrast that withBarry’s wooing of Lena, a dynamic that is almost child-like in its innocence while simultaneously providing a profound, intimate connection and a foundation for love to flourish. Anderson’s love of California iconography and culture is also present, albeit in a subdued form that accurately conveys the colorless palette of the San Fernando Valley’s suburban/industrial outskirts.

A distinct step away from the kind of films people loved him for, PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE was a bold gamble for Anderson—a gamble that ultimately paid off when critics hailed Sandler’s performance as one of the best of the year and awarding Anderson himself with the Best Director prize at the Cannes Film Festival. While not his best-known film, PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE has attained a cult following that’s kept it within cinema’s collective consciousness.

It may be minor in terms of impact and scale, but PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE is a major shift towards a new phase of Anderson’s career and in-depth character studies that continue to this day.


ANDERSON’S SHORT WORKS (2002-2006)

After the release of 2002’s PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE, director Paul Thomas Anderson embarked on a little hiatus from feature filmmaking that would last for five years. While he decided on what he wanted to develop as his next project, he took on several small-scale projects to keep his skills sharp and his creativity active.

BLOSSOMS & BLOOD (2002)

Several of Anderson’s works from this period are conceptually supplemental to PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE and his collaboration with Adam Sandler. When tasked to find a purpose for his feature’s deleted material, Anderson decided to forego the conventional route of including them as DVD bonus content.

Instead, he whipped several of his leftover elements into a self-contained mood piece called BLOSSOMS & BLOOD. The piece is an artfully-blended mash of deleted scenes, video artist Jeremy Blake’s animated paintings, and the music video for composer Jon Brion’s single “Here We Go”. BLOSSOMS & BLOOD utilizes flares of color and light, as well as a disorienting, experimental sound mix to reflect the abstractly-whimsical tone of PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE.

Freed from the demands of feature-length storytelling, Anderson is able to crank this particular aesthetic into overdrive, giving us a glimpse into Barry Egan’s inner madness and rapture.

MATTRESS MAN (2002)

The production of PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE spurred another set of works for Anderson, and while they are tangentially influenced by the feature, they aren’t as directly intertwined with it as BLOSSOMS & BLOOD is. In 2002, the internet was just beginning to take off as a forum for short-form video exhibition.

Anderson, perhaps consciously or not, took advantage of this nascent technology by releasing a trio of very small sketches based around a singular, slap-sticky joke.

The first, MATTRESS MAN, sees the late Philip Seymour Hoffman reprise his sleazeball character from PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE filming a commercial for his mattress retail business. The piece is filmed in analog video to emulate the homegrown, lo-fi nature of regional retailer commercials.

Aside from being hilariously entertaining in the span of a single minute,MATTRESS MAN is valuable within Anderson’s body of work in that it continues his exploration of video as a medium. Whereas MAGNOLIA’s (1999) Frank TJ Mackey character employed slick, well-lit video to sell his “Seduce & Destroy” technique, MATTRESS MAN shows us how in a different set of hands, video can come off as inept and clumsy.

BALLCHEWER (2002)

The second piece from this period is BALLCHEWER, which also appears to have been shot during the production ofPUNCH-DRUNK LOVE. It features Anderson regular Luis Guzman and PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE’s Emily Watson interacting with a pitbull. Curiously, this piece looks to have been shot on film in Anderson’s signature anamorphic aspect ratio, leading one to believe it might have been shot on a lark at the end of one of the feature’s shooting days.

The punchline toBALLCHEWER is oblique and a little muddy, making it the weakest of the trio.

COUCH (2002)

The third and final film of the trio, COUCH, continues Anderson’s collaboration with Adam Sandler, who plays a man trying out new furniture at his own peril. The piece is shot in black and white, and told mostly in silence except for exaggerated sound effects.

None of Sandler’s restraint or nuance from PUNCH-DRUNK-LOVE is present here. Instead, Anderson lets Sandler go full-on clown mode, creating a dynamic that feels distinctly out of place with Anderson’s aesthetic. Together, these three sketches form a triptych exploring the fine line between lowbrow slapstick and highbrow art—a conceptual investigation whose promise Anderson ultimately mined better in PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE.

DEMO JAIL (2006)

Anderson was largely absent from the scene during 2003-2005. His first child (with comedienne Maya Rudolph) was born in 2005, and the same year he served as the standby director on A PRAIRIE HOME COMPANION, directed by his hero Robert Altman (who was ailing in health and was obligated to hire someone to replace him in the event of his death for insurance purposes).

Needless to say, big things were happening in his life that necessitated a short break from his career.  By 2006, Anderson’s productivity began picking back up, beginning with a short sketch he directed for (the short-lived) THE SHOWBIZ SHOW WITH DAVID SPADE called DEMO JAIL.

The piece riffs on an old joke within the entertainment industry—that of the wanna-be who forces his awful demo on an established and successful friend. David Spade naturally plays the successful friend, who is trapped inside his intern’s car and forced to listen to the same terrible song again and again.

Shot on video, the sketch itself isn’t particularly good, with nothing in its execution to suggest Anderson’s hand. All in all, it’s rather forgettable, but it does serve as a warning shot for Anderson’s career comeback the following year with his staggering epic, THERE WILL BE BLOOD.


THERE WILL BE BLOOD (2007)

The year 2007 was a very special year in cinema for me. On a personal level, it marked the tenth anniversary of my own first short films, an occasion I celebrated with a limited engagement of a feature I co-directed at a local Portland arthouse theatre.

On a wider scale, 2007 saw the release of three of my favorite films of all time (NO COUNTRY FOR OLD MENZODIAC, and THERE WILL BE BLOOD), by three of my favorite directors (The Coen Brothers, David Fincher, and Paul Thomas Anderson respectively). Now that we’re some years removed, these three films are generally considered to be among the very best films of that decade.

Watching these films was a religious experience for me; I could only imagine that this was what it must’ve felt like to take in the first screenings of films from the French New Wave of the 60’s or the American crime dramas of the 70’s.

It was the height of a very special time in cinema, where visionary auteurs found homes for their passion projects in specialty studio shingles like Focus Features or Fox Searchlight. The aforementioned three films represented the apex of this movement, and were the culmination of an unsustainable model that would cause the whole house of cards to come toppling down only a year later (an implosion I would unwittingly experience firsthand during my internship at Warner Independent Pictures).

Out of these three pictures, THERE WILL BE BLOOD cut through to affect me on the most fundamental level. My initial impression of the film was that it was a staggering achievement—I walked away convinced I had seen the modern equivalent of CITIZEN KANE (1941), and that a new contender for “best film of all time” had just been christened.

Time has softened my hyperbole, but my conviction remains—THERE WILL BE BLOOD will stand the test of time as one of the greatest films ever made. THERE WILL BE BLOOD’s conception was something of an unexpected lark. After the release of 2002’s PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE, director Paul Thomas Anderson was out of the public eye for five years, undergoing lots of personal and artistic growth, building his family, and finding inspiration from unlikely places as fan anticipation for his next project grew to a fever pitch.

While experiencing a bout of homesickness during a trip to London, Anderson purchased a copy of Upton Sinclar’s novel “Oil!”, mainly because he liked the image of California oil fields on its cover. Transfixed by the novel’s cinematic potential, he began pulling further inspiration from the biography of real-life California oil tycoon Edward Doheny and John Huston’s classic 1948 film THE TREASURE OF SIERRA MADRE (which he watched nightly).

He gave his project the lurid title THERE WILL BE BLOOD, constructing it as his own version of the great American epic—a grand statement on capitalism and the perversion of all-consuming ambition, embodied by one of the most original and compelling antiheroes in cinematic history.

In turn of the century Bakersfield, California, ruthless oil tycoon Daniel Plainview (Daniel Day-Lewis in a career-defining, Oscar-winning performance) is very rapidly accumulating wealth from his growing oil enterprise. Along with his adopted son HW Plainview and business partner Fletcher (Ciaran Hinds), Plainview negotiates the purchase of the Sunday Family homestead, located in the barren deserts of a village called Little Boston.

Unbeknownst to the Sundays, the land has an ocean of oil underneath it, just waiting to be drilled by Plainview and his cohorts. His supremely profitable enterprise brings unprecedented growth and prosperity to the inhabitants of Little Boston, turning it into an overnight boomtown.

However, success has its dark side, which Plainview learns as he grapples with Sunday’s son, Eli (Paul Dano)—an aspiring evangelical preacher who extorts Plainview into building a church for him and his flock. The two viciously lock horns in a battle that pits capitalism against theocracy for the soul of Little Boston.

Anderson has painted in THERE WILL BE BLOOD a dark portrait of greed, corruption and power that forces us to confront the ugliest aspects of our American ideals. Day-Lewis’s portrayal of blackhearted Daniel Plainview possesses shades of Bill The Butcher from Martin Scorsese’s GANGS OF NEW YORK (2002), only more intelligent and sophisticated in both temperament and taste.

He simply looms larger than life, and in the process becomes a legendary screen villains on par with Bela Lugosi’s Count Dracula or Heath Ledger’s Joker. As Plainview’s ideological foil Eli Sunday, Dano could have very easily been overshadowed by his co-star’s scene-shredding gravitas.

Fortunately, Dano more than holds his own with an amazing performance as a vain, manipulative so-called Man of God whose intentions are just as slimy as the “devil” he endeavors to destroy. THERE WILL BE BLOOD focuses mainly on the duel between these two unconventional titans, thus eliminating the need for Anderson to recruit any of the members of his personal acting company. Working with a suite of fresh new faces, Anderson’s focus is invigorated.

Despite the changing of the guard in front of the camera, Anderson still relies on most of his usual technical collaborators: producers Daniel Lupi and JoAnne Sellar, editor Dylan Tichenor, and cinematographer Robert Elswit who won the second of the film’s two Oscars for his stunning work.

Anderson’s preferred 2.35:1 aspect ratio is perfectly suited to capture the dusty, earth-toned vistas and sweeping, confident camera moves. While Anderson’s visual language doesn’t change physically, the dynamic of its intentions has.

Elaborate camera moves project a grand scale that evokes the work of John Ford and John Huston and lends the picture an overall air of myth. The grandeur is almost overwhelming, and would risk coming off as supremely pretentious in the hands of a less-capable director. Thankfully, Anderson’s confidence and mastery of his craft assures the tone attains the right balance of gravitas.

Anderson scores a new collaborator in production designer Jack Fisk, who had already become a legend in his field for his work on Terrence Malick’s films. With THERE WILL BE BLOOD, Fisk does what he does best: bringing an authentic, lived-in period vibe designed to place us firmly in the time and place of the story. Fisk’s attention to detail is truly incredible—everything falls within Anderson and Elswit’s established color palette, and nothing rings as false or out of place.

Anderson’s reinvention of his visual aesthetic extends to the music, where he finds an inspired, creative refreshment in his collaboration with Radiohead guitarist Johnny Greenwood. The music in Anderson’s films have always erred on the side of quirky, but in THERE WILL BE BLOOD the musical character shifts from Jon Brion’s curiously endearing compositions to something more classical and avant-garde.

Greenwood uses harrowing, discordant strings to pervert the conventional orchestral sound into a droning echo of Anderson’s portrait of brutal capitalism. Anderson supplements Greenwood’s compositions with classical source cues like Arvo Parte’s Fratres suite or Brahm’s Violin Concerto in D Major, creating a distinctly Kubrick-ian vibe.

At the center of the film is a tense dynamic between Plainview and his adopted son HW, a precocious and intelligent little boy whose increasing rebelliousness earns him a one-way ticket to an expensive boarding school far away. The elder Plainview is too consumed by his drilling operation to properly raise his son, and in the process inadvertently turns his little business partner into a competitor.

Anderson’s career-long exploration of family dynamics takes a left turn in order to reflect Plainview’s empty soul. Plainview uses HW to project the appearance of an affable family man, even as he takes over people’s land and robs them of their potential fortunes.

In eschewing a conventional plotline or story-arc, the emotional climax ofTHERE WILL BE BLOOD hinges on this tension between Plainview and HW, which comes to a head when HW is a grown man and expresses a desire to move to Mexico with his wife and start an oil company of his own.

Plainview sees this as an act of betrayal and rejects HW as his heir while revealing his true lineage. It’s a pitiful power play that affords Plainview a temporary, petty victory, but it’s clear to the audience that he’s damned himself to a short-lived future of loneliness and regret.

In Anderson’s eyes, tragedy ultimately befalls those who choose to permanently turn away from family. Plainview’s ultimate tragedy is that for all the material wealth he could accumulate, he would always be emotionally and ideologically bankrupt and didn’t have the wherewithal to recognize it.

Anderson’s other thematic fascinations are present in THERE WILL BE BLOOD, albeit in surprising ways. His stories and characters are inherently Californian in nature, meaning that they always reflect some aspect of the Golden State’s rich cultural heritage.

The oil boom that fueled the rise of cities like Los Angeles is depicted here during its infancy (however, the film was shot, ironically, far away from California in Malta, Texas). The fields of steadily-rocking oil derricks profoundly shaped California’s geography and culture, and one need only to look at the expansive oil fields of LA’S Baldwin Hills to see that oil continues to drive California’s economy to this day.

THERE WILL BE BLOOD’s true genius is in its understated relevancy to our modern age, and how our actions can reverberate over the course of a century. Despite all of our technological advances and progress as a society, we’re still down there in the muck, bludgeoning our way to prosperity.

Anderson’s filmography is greatly interested in sexuality and the human dependency on it. THERE WILL BE BLOOD is notable in this regard for its curious omission of all sexuality. Plainview is driven purely by greed, and hasn’t the slightest care of what other people think of him, much less the opposite sex.

Even the process of obtaining a son comes to him by way of something resembling more of a business transaction than the result of a sexual act. The absence of Plainview’s sexuality in itself is a profound comment on the intricate relationship between ambition and sexual longing, and how non-sexual pursuits like wealth and power can still be fetishized and obsessed over.

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Anderson’s classical, formalist style had been used to subversive effect in his previous work, but his full embrace of it inTHERE WILL BE BLOOD points to his maturing into a very different kind of filmmaker, one whose work is infused with an almost Orwellian sense of self-aware importance (oftentimes mistaken for pretension).

The palpable influence of Robert Altman, Jonathan Demme, and Martin Scorsese in previous films gives way here to the unimpeachable greats—John Huston, Stanley Kubrick, John Ford. As a whole, THERE WILL BE BLOOD feels very Kubrickian, its opening prologue running for a full twenty minutes before the first line of dialogue is spoken (a surefire nod to the Dawn of Man sequence in Kubrick’s 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY (1968)).

This choice doesn’t come from a desire to deliberately emulate Kubrick, however—instead it comes from a place of supreme confidence in Anderson’s skills as a visual storyteller. In seeing Plainview doggedly persist against a series of debilitating mishaps to get his first oil well up and running, we learn more about the ruthlessness and intelligence of the character far more than a dialogue scene could ever tell us.

Of course, Anderson’s knack for memorable and striking dialogue continues to be put to incredible use here. While there’s less of it, Anderson manages to concoct some of the most-quoted lines in recent film memory. The film would’ve been legendary enough even without the inclusion of Plainview’s “I Drink Your Milkshake” monologue, but its inclusion brings Anderson’s full vision over the top and into the territory of unimpeachable greatness.

THERE WILL BE BLOOD was hailed as a masterpiece when it was released, with critics praising its metaphors for a modern-day thirst for oil, an unquenchable commodity that is widely believed to have driven us into a needless war with Iraq under President Bush.

It is arguably Anderson’s most successful film, with a wide swath of nominations at that year’s Academy Awards (and two wins, but none for Anderson himself). Anderson dedicated the film to the memory of his hero Robert Altman, and in doing so, he closed the book on the first part of his career—a career that Altman had directly influenced—and began an exciting new one, marked by laser-focused character studies and a sense of grandeur unmatched by any other filmmaker working today.


THE MASTER (2012)

It’s symptomatic of a high-concept, tentpole-driven system of studio filmmaking that even one of our most treasured directors must struggle to find funding, despite an unbroken string of critically acclaimed works to his name.

After the collapse of specialty studio shingles like Paramount Vantage and Warner Independent Pictures who had churned out dozens of dramatically rich prestige pictures (albeit admittedly calculated to snag Oscars) during the mid-aughts, directors like Paul Thomas Anderson suddenly found themselves shut out from a Hollywood game that increasingly favored mindless popcorn fare.

For Anderson in particular, his long-percolating idea about a religious cult inspired by L. Ron Hubbard’s Church of Scientology was deemed too risky of subject matter for its asking budget. Anderson and his regular producers, Daniel Lupi and JoAnne Sellar, struggled to find funding for nearly five years, a fact made all the more excruciating because his previous film, THERE WILL BE BLOOD (2007), had generated some of the best reviews and press of Anderson’s career.

For a long while, Anderson’s highly-anticipated project, known by various names asTHE UNTITLED PAUL THOMAS ANDERSON PROJECT and THE MASTER, looked like it would never see the light of day. Enter: Megan Ellison, a hotshot twenty-something heiress with a love for visionary auteurs and their work, as well as the considerable financial resources to help make them.

In an industry increasingly paralyzed by risk and creative bankruptcy, bold figures like Ellison represent a beacon of hope that art and commerce don’t necessarily have to be separate from one another. Drawing further inspiration from LET THERE BE LIGHT (1946), John Huston’s World War 2 documentary about soldiers and PTSD, Anderson centers THE MASTER’s focus on Freddie Quell (Joaquin Phoenix)—an eccentric, unstable man whose condition was amplified by the shell shock he contracted during the Pacific Theatre of WW2.

reddie can’t hold a steady job, is obsessed with sex, and is slowly drinking himself to death with a potent brew of whiskey, paint thinner, and torpedo fuel. In a drunken stupor, he wanders onto the yacht of a fatherly middle-aged man named Lancaster Dodd (Phillip Seymour Hoffman), who is revealed to be an enigmatic and charismatic scholar as well as the figurehead of a new religious following known simply as The Cause.

Freddie and Lancaster share a curious attraction to each other, with Lancaster tickled by the sense that he and Freddie have met once before—perhaps in a past life. Freddie uses Lancaster’s hospitality to ingratiate himself into The Cause’s good graces and inner circle, eventually earning himself a spot as a Lieutenant and Lancaster’s right-hand man.

THE MASTER defies narrative convention in that there’s no traditional story arc for audiences to follow. Instead, Anderson lets the story unfold in a compellingly obtuse way that highlights the leads’ off-kilter orbit around each other.

The result is a strange hybrid combining the starkness and gravitas of THERE WILL BE BLOOD with the eccentric abstraction of PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE (2002). There’s no condemnation of Scientology to be found here, like many had simply assumed or believed before seeing it—instead, Anderson’s vision is a portrait of a deeply disturbed individual finding his place within a community.

It just so happens that the “community” also happens to be a cult. The character of Freddie Quell is played with rapturous abandon by Phoenix in his first major role since his staged breakdown-as-performance-art seen in Casey Affleck’s I’M STILL HERE (2010).

He crafts a haunting, Oscar-nominated depiction of a man ravaged by war and self-abuse, commanding our undivided attention in every frame while fully immersing himself in his character (much like Daniel Day-Lewis had done in THERE WILL BE BLOOD).

Likewise, the late Hoffman was nominated for an Oscar in his last collaboration with Anderson before his untimely death in early 2014. Due to his long, rich working history with Anderson, Hoffman had the benefit of the role being written expressly for him, making for an effortless performance that projects a paternal warmth and convincing gravitas.

As one of the last roles of his career and life, Hoffman’s quiet, authoritative presence and un-showy confidence proves why he was considered to be one of the best, if not the best, actor of his generation. And last, but not least, Amy Adams plays Peggy Dodd, presenting a warm, matronly front as Lancaster’s wife—but behind closed doors, she’s more calculating and manipulative than Lady MacBeth.

In a film devoted to the two titan performances from its male leads, Adams more than holds her own, ending up with Oscar nomination herself for the trouble. Anderson’s regular cinematographer, Robert Elswit, was unavailable to shoot THE MASTER, so the auteur enlisted the help of Mihai Malaimaire Jr—currently making a name for himself as Francis Ford Coppola’s go-to cameraman.

The visual style of Anderson’s sixth feature is starkly different from what came before, the chief difference being Anderson’s choice to shoot the picture on 65mm film, making it the first feature to utilize the format since 1996.

This decision informed every subsequent choice down the line, meaning Anderson couldn’t shoot in his preferred anamorphic aspect ratio, and that the 65mm film camera’s sheer bulk limited his ability to execute his signature, dynamic movements.

Anderson reconciled this diluting of style with an opportunity to explore the idea of portraiture. He had always incorporated some aspect of it into his framing in past works, such as the precise profile compositions that dotted HARD EIGHT (1996) and BOOGIE NIGHTS(1997), but in shooting on 65mm film, Anderson was able to better replicate the look of large-format portraiture photography.

A higher image resolution meant shallower focus and finer grain, and when combined with the deep, stormy blues and greys afforded old-fashioned chemical color-timing, creates a rich picture that draws the viewer into this curious world.

As I mentioned before, the size of the 65mm film camera meant Anderson’s compositions were mostly limited to locked-off tripod shots, which makes for a significantly more sedate experience than any of his previous works. What little camera movement there is takes the form of slow and steady dolly moves, giving THE MASTER a patient, calculated pace that echoes the work of Stanley Kubrick.

THERE WILL BE BLOOD’s production designer Jack Fisk returns for THE MASTER, faithfully and subtly replicating the look of midcentury California. Every non-organic thing within the bounds of Anderson’s frame—the costumes, the color palette, Lancaster’s trusty yacht—is Fisk’s domain, and his unwavering commitment to authenticity and Anderson’s vision helps to create an engrossing experience that never feels false or out of place.

Anderson supplements Fisk’s authentic midcentury feel by incorporating a few well-chosen needledrop songs from the era, like Ella Fitzgerald’s “Get Thee Behind Me Satan”. Compared to the wall-to-wall disco explosion of 1997’s BOOGIE NIGHTS, the relatively sparse placement of source tracks shows the discipline and restraint of a mature filmmaker secure and confident in his vision.

Increasingly relying on original score to communicate his intended tone, Anderson again works with Radiohead guitarist Johnny Greenwood, who crafted THERE WILL BE BLOOD’s stunning symphony of dissonance. With THE MASTER, Greenwood crafts a lumbering, staccato score that promises mystery and discovery, while echoing the hypnotic techniques that practitioners of The Cause use on their followers.

Throughout the course of his filmography, Anderson’s exploration of family dynamics, sexual dependence, and the cultural heritage of California have evolved in surprising ways. California is notorious for its laidback, inclusive social structures— structures that allowed the rise of Scientology and other fringe religions.

Just as Scientology is distinctly tied to the Golden State in its origins and operations, so too does THE MASTER’s fictional organization claim California (specifically San Francisco and the state’s northern region) as its physical and mental territory.

Despite the film’s storyline taking us to different places like New York City, Phoenix, and Lynn, Massachusetts (the hometown of Anderson’s father, Ernie), Anderson’s treatment of these locales never loses sight of a distinctly Californian approach, utilizing primal iconography like the beach, palm trees, and the desert wherever it can.

Anderson’s continued fascination of family dynamics uses THE MASTER to explore the idea of family in a larger sense: a community, and the sense of belonging to one. As a lost soul without any family we are made aware of, Freddie comes off like a complete mess of a human being.

He travels the world like an aimless drifter, with no real driving force pulling him along besides the pursuit of fleeting comforts like rotgut booze and fast women. It’s not until he’s caught under the spell of Lancaster’s charismatic charlatan that he finds a semblance of peace and companionship.

He’s able to calm his voracious sexual appetite and channel it into what he perceives to be meaningful pursuits in service to something greater than him.  Without the presence of a conventional plot arc, the film’s stakes and key emotional conflict stem from Freddie’s presence within the community becoming a liability and a danger to Lancaster and Peggy, an idea made all the more complicated by the chummy father/son relationship that Lancaster shares with Freddie.

In this way, THE MASTER plays like something of a companion piece to THERE WILL BE BLOOD. Both films hinge on the relationship between father and son, with the father being a powerful man of influence and means, while the initially-loyal son bears the threat of the father’s professional demise. The similarities become most evident in each film’s climax, which both take place in the father’s grand, cathedral-like office. THERE WILL BE BLOOD finds the scene bathed in darkness, as Daniel Plainview venomously rejects his son and condemns himself to a life of wretched loneliness. Conversely, Lancaster Dodd’s office is awash in blinding daylight and, while he also releases Freddie of his bond, he does so in a warm, reassuring manner that’s meant to bring peace to Freddie’s inner chaos.

As a continuation of Anderson’s weighty examinations of profoundly flawed men, THE MASTER was received with great enthusiasm by critics. However, the positive reaction was not as universal as it was for THERE WILL BE BLOOD.

The two films are stylistically similar, conceived of and executed in a similar mindset and directly influenced by the work of John Huston. Anderson’s works have never exactly lit the box office on fire, and THE MASTER is no exception. However, its winning of the Silver Lion award at the Venice Film Festival, as well as the Academy Award nominations for its three leads, ensures THE MASTER’s place as one Anderson’s defining works.

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FIONA APPLE “HOT KNIFE” MUSIC VIDEO (2013)

For his first music video in a decade, Anderson teamed up once again with his old flame Fiona Apple, crafting a video for“HOT KNIFE”, the closing single off of Apple’s new album, The Idler Wheel. It’s unclear at first glance what the shooting format is, since it appears to be large format like 65mm, but notice that it also incorporates Anderson’s preferred anamorphic aspect ratio. I’d suggest that the piece might be digital, but I ultimately suspect that it isn’t because Anderson has yet to use the format in any of his other works. This seemingly simple, deceptively complex look extends to the video itself, featuring a conventional performance that reveals a layered complexity as the song builds. The visual trickery that marked Anderson’s previous Apple videos returns in somewhat subdued form, showcasing Anderson’s discipline and restraint as his craft has matured.

Anderson shoots Apple against a black background, lighting her in the style of portraiture in an aesthetic conceit carried over from his 2012 feature THE MASTER. The color palette is even similar, featuring cream highlights complemented by neutral, desaturated tones.

He mirrors the track’s layered vocals with a triptych of panels, surrounding Apple on both sides with backup vocalists featured in profile. The result is a subtle tapestry that visually echoes the construction of the song itself.

As of this writing, “HOT KNIFE” is Anderson’s most recent of his released work. Later this year he will release his seventh feature, INHERENT VICE, adapted from Thomas Pynchon’s novel. It will be Anderson’s first adaptation of someone else’s story, and will re-team him with THE MASTER’s Joaquin Phoenix while transporting him back to the 1970’s-era Los Angeles previously seen in BOOGIE NIGHTS.

Without knowing too many particulars of the story, it’s not hard to image thatINHERENT VICE will find Anderson continuing his in-depth character studies of compellingly flawed men.

Anderson’s sixteen-year rise from maverick indie upstart to elder statesman of American prestige cinema has eclipsed his peers, and rightfully so. The assertion that Anderson is one of our greatest living directors is one that’s widely agreed upon by the international cinematic community, and while one might think this would all go to his head, Anderson has shown a remarkable degree of modesty, humbleness, and mischievousness that endears him where other pretentious visionaries might fall short.

By merging old school aesthetic sensibilities with new school storytelling techniques, Anderson has directly inspired a generation of up-and-coming filmmakers while securing his own place among the pantheon of great directors.


ANDERSON’S INHERENT VICE (2014)

Over the course of seven features, director Paul Thomas Anderson has built up a reputation for himself as arguably the finest filmmaker of his generation.  It’s symptomatic of Hollywood’s current priorities, then, that even a director as lauded and widely-esteemed as Anderson has a difficult time getting a film made.

After finishing his 2007 masterpiece THERE WILL BE BLOOD, Anderson struggled for several years to get his follow-up, THE MASTER (2012), off the ground.  This time away from production allowed him to develop several projects simultaneously, one of which was the first novel from cult crime novelist Thomas Pynchon to ever be adapted to the screen.

Titled “Inherent Vice”, the novel’s film rights were promptly snatched up in 2010 by Anderson and his producing partners Daniel Lupi and JoAnne Sellar.  Anderson scripted the adaptation himself, with an eye to cast Robert Downey Jr in the central role of Doc Sportello, a stoner burnout turned private investigator.

However, the film’s extended development cycle caused the director to reconsider his choice, and in the end, Downey was replaced by the leading man of Anderson’s previous film, Joaquin Phoenix.  INHERENT VICE marks Anderson’s return to the studio fold after the independent production and distribution of THE MASTER, but even the increased firepower afforded by Warner Brothers’ backing wasn’t enough to save the film from its own labyrinthine plotting and an ambivalent audience reception.

 After completing two consecutive portraits of powerful, disciplined men, critics decried Anderson for taking a hard left turn into irreverence and mischief– but in the process, he just may have created a new cult classic that’s far, far ahead of its time.

The plot to INHERENT VICE is, in a word, incomprehensible.  The story’s various twists and turns are densely layered and delivered almost entirely in stoner mumble and hippie slang.  Multiple viewings aren’t encouraged, they’re mandatory in order to fully untangle the sea of knots that Anderson has woven here.

 It’s important to note then, that this is not a simple case of directorial overindulgence; in presenting INHERENT VICE in this way, Anderson has faithfully captured Pynchon’s idiosyncratic voice and spirit right down to the letter.

 The story is set in 1970, in the fictional SoCal seaside village known as Gordita Beach (akin to the real-life Hermosa or Manhattan Beach communities).  The Manson murders have brought the Free Love era crashing to the ground, shattering the collective dream of the 1960’s and leaving everyone too zoned out to pick up the pieces.

 Their utopian dreams in shambles, the hippies and the stoners have chosen to carve out their own place within the workforce– one of whom is Doc Sportello (Phoenix) a private investigator who works out of a rented room inside of a doctor’s office.

One night, he’s visited upon by his ethereal ex, Shasta (Katherine Waterston), who pleads for his assistance in tracking down her new beau– a real estate mogul named Mickey Wolfmann (Eric Roberts) who has recently gone missing.  Doc agrees to help Shasta, partly because he still carries a torch for her.

 As he descends into the seedy underbelly of SoCal’s surf culture, he manages to uncover a sprawling criminal conspiracy perpetuated by crooked cops, hedonistic dentists, and murderous white supremacists.  Frankly, it’s hard to keep track of all the disparate elements, and the only thing that’s given a modicum of bleary-eyed clarity is the film’s title.

 Even then, it’s full meaning is maddeningly elusive.  Going by the film’s definition, “Inherent Vice” is a shipping term that describes an item whose decay is an inevitable product of its own internal components (rather than via external forces).  Milk will spoil, chocolate will melt.

 In the film, Doc wonders what the term means when it’s applied to ex-girlfriends– we can surmise that it is our own inherent vices that turns those girlfriends into exes in the first place.  Our weaknesses and indulgence cause us to deteriorate from the inside, keeping us from arriving at our destination in a pristine, perfect state.

Anderson’s approach to INHERENT VICE suggests that the film, then, is about the Flower Power generation’s internal degenerative agents and their attempts to keep their particular way of life alive in the face of a New Conservatism embodied by figures like Ronald Reagan.

Controversial leading man Joaquin Phoenix fully embodies Thomas Pynchon’s eccentric creation in his second consecutive appearance for Anderson.  Much like Anderson’s original choice, Robert Downey Jr, Phoenix is a no-brainer for the role, and could’ve sailed by on the strengths of his own eccentric charisma.

 However, Phoenix disappears entirely inside Sportello’s signature mutton-chops and birkenstocks.  A burned-out hippie in the grand tradition of THE BIG LEBOWSKI (1998), Sportello is a relic of a bygone age that won’t recognize that it has ended.

 Phoenix charmingly mumbles his way through Anderson’s idiosyncratic caper, but years of heavy drug use have done little to dull his investigative edge.  Josh Brolin’s Lt. Christian “Bigfoot” Bjornsen is almost the exact opposite– a sharp-witted lawman with a particularly blunt approach to justice.  Brolin is effortlessly convincing as the lantern-jawed, masculine ideal of Eisenhower-era America.

The ironclad resoluteness of Lt. Bjornsen is a fantastic foil to Sportello’s squirrelly paranoia, creating a truly entertaining chemistry that fuels the film’s momentum.  In the absence of a true, singular villain for Sportello and Bjornsen to track down, the story compensates by focuses instead on the titanic battle of wills between these two characters– each man embodying the ideals of their respective eras and hellbent on staying afloat amidst the tumultuous sea of change that threatens to wash right over them.

A rogue’s gallery of oddballs and eccentrics populate Anderson’s supporting cast, most of whom are working with the director for the first time.  As Doc’s ex-lover, Shasta, Katherine Waterston is presented to the audience in a manner not unlike a spiritual vision.

She’s a ghost– drifting in and out of Doc’s life without warning, bewitching him with her perpetual pout.  Already a growing presence within the independent scene, Waterston delivers a breakout performance that lingers in the mind, infecting the audience’s memory much in the same way she’s infected Doc.

Better known for her musical career as a singer and harpist, Joanna Newsom lends her ethereal physicality to the film as Sortilege– a character whose purpose within the narrative is never fully explained.  She acts as something of an avatar for Pynchon himself, preserving his distinct prose in the form of onscreen narration.

It’s implied several times throughout that only Doc has the ability to see and interact with Sortilege, which suggests that she might be something of a guardian angel– a soothing voice to calm the paranoid storm raging in Doc’s head.

Despite extremely limited screen time, Benicio Del Toro makes a memorable impression as Sauncho Smilax, an attorney specializing in marine law who acts as a pro-bono lawyer, confidant, and friend to Doc.  The same can be said of Owen Wilson in his subdued performance as Coy Harlingen, an ex-junkie musician and family man who’s been faking his death for the last few years.

Jena Malone is quickly becoming one of the more interesting character actresses of her generation, as evidenced by her turn in INHERENT VICE as Coy’s wife, Hope– another ex-junkie who found God and a set of false chompers after giving birth to their son.

Her recent dental work ends up as a vital clue in Sportello’s investigation, linking her to Martin Short’s demented, coke-hoovering dentist character Dr. Rudy Blatnoyd.  Blatnoyd is a member of The Golden Fang, the shadowy crime syndicate that’s seemingly behind this whole mess.

Rounding out Anderson’s supporting cast of note is a quartet of well-known character actors, each of whom effortlessly slip into the director’s idiosyncratic vision of LA in the early 70’s.  Reese Witherspoon plays Deputy District Attorney Penny Kimball, Doc’s current lover and a strong-willed, independent woman in her own right.  Curiously, she’s very much a manifestation of The Establishment, an entity Doc has been battling all his life.

This character trait leads to some gloriously off-kilter chemistry between her and Doc, and makes for some of the film’s most memorable moments.  Eric Roberts, also known as the The Man Who Will Act In Anything, displays formidable control of his craft in his brief appearance as real estate mogul Michael Wolfmann.

The mysterious man at the center of this whole caper, Wolfmann is initially presented in photographic form as a rich and successful businessman.  However, when Doc tracks him down at a rehab facility outside of town, Wolfmann is strung out and barely coherent, having been placed under the watchful eye of the feds and doped up beyond all recognition.

Michael Williams, a rising talent with high-profile turns in THE WIRE and BOARDWALK EMPIRE, makes an amusing cameo as Tariq Khalil, a former member of the Black Gorilla gang who has just gotten out of prison, only to find his old hood completely bulldozed to make way for one of Wolfmann’s planned suburban communities.

Finally,SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE alum Maya Rudolph– Anderson’s real-life partner and the mother of his children– appears briefly as Petunia Leeway, the secretary at Doc’s office.  INHERENT VICE is a film that often feels meandering and unfocused– the production process was politely described by Anderson’s collaborators as “chaotic”.

Most of the time, this would be a bad thing, but that isn’t necessarily the case here.  Indeed, Anderson’s adherence to Pynchon’s particular voice and his cavalier subversion (or outright disposal) of the genre’s most recognizable tropes make for a singularly unique mystery film.

The cinematography goes a long way towards conveying this notion, with Anderson’s long-time director of photography Robert Elswit returning to head up the production after his absence during THE MASTER.  Having shot most THE MASTER in large-format 65mm film, Anderson and Elswit return to the tried-and-true 35mm gauge, choosing a grainy stock that adds a slight veneer of granola crunchiness.

Retaining THE MASTER’s 1.85:1 aspect ratio, INHERENT VICE is presented as a gritty, sunbaked take on the traditional noir genre– some have even go far as to call it a “surf noir”.  The color palette deals in muted, faded tones that were once previously bright– a reflection of the harsh sobriety that followed the collapse of the chemically-altered dream of the 1960’s.

The lighting is bright and naturalistic, save for the nocturnal sequences, which take on a deep, almost-theatrical cobalt hue.  A filmmaker long known for his dynamic camerawork, Anderson’s recent output has seen a noticeable drawdown of flashy techniques in favor of masterful discipline.

 INHERENT VICE seemingly deviates from this laser-focused approach by shooting a substantial majority of setups handheld, yet it also reinforces Anderson’s previous aesthetic conventions in a big way.

The film plays like something of an amalgamation of his prior stylistic epochs:  his early-career fondness for extended tracking shots and current fascination with the compositional conceits of portraiture are present in their own right (like in the long Steadicam shot that plays under the opening title), but they’re also combined to form a recurring visual motif unique to INHERENT VICE.

Many scenes are presented in extended master shots with little to no coverage, with his compositions accentuated by a slow, almost imperceptible dolly and/or zoom movement forward that’s somewhat reminiscent of Stanley Kubrick’s late-career aesthetic.

Anderson’s foray into comedy in the years surrounding PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE (2002) also informs INHERENT VICE, making for his most outright comedic effort in over a decade.  There’s a surprising amount of visual slapstick at work here, along with several playful visual gags like a shot of his characters partaking in a pizza dinner party composed to recreate Leonard Da Vinci’s “The Last Supper”.

INHERENT VICE marks Anderson’s first collaboration with a new production designer, David Crank.  Having worked as an art director under legendary production designer Jack Fisk on Anderson’s previous two features, Crank stepped up to the task when Fisk proved unavailable to reprise his role (most likely due to his commitments on Terrence Malick’s forthcomingKNIGHT OF CUPS).

INHERENT VICE takes place in a 1970’s that has yet to see the glittering disco balls depicted inBOOGIE NIGHTS (1997), so naturally the film’s aesthetic hews closer to a late 60’s feel.  Crank’s production design is realistic and low-key, projecting a modest and lived-in authenticity that never descends into camp or exaggeration.

In his third consecutive collaboration with Anderson, Radiohead guitarist Jonny Greenwood proves himself an invaluable component of the director’s mid-career aesthetic, much like Jon Brion had been for HARD EIGHT (1996) through PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE.

Greenwood is inherently suited towards Anderson’s artistic quirks, enabling him to complement and elevate the footage into a higher, sometimes-transcendent realm.  For all its perceived imperfections, INHERENT VICE’s strongest suit is arguably Greenwood’s original score– a romantic, mysterious and avant-garde effort comprised of violins, oboes, and musical saws that harken back to the ornately orchestral cues of yesteryear.

While he doesn’t lean on needle drop source tracks as much as he did in the first act of his career, Anderson nevertheless uses his lively period setting as an opportunity to employ some choice art-rock and pop classics from the era.

The most high-profile of these tracks is Can’s “Vitamin C”, deployed as a luridly beckoning narrative agent during the film’s opening sequences.  Artists like Neil Young and Sam Cooke also appear on a soundtrack that ably captures the eclectic vibe of vintage SoCal: a broadly diverse palette of crooning country ballads, funky R&B cuts, and psychedelic rock riffs.

The music technically may be from the same era, but it’s a far cry from the bright, cheery pop tunes we heard in BOOGIE NIGHTS.  Indeed, INHERENT VICE’s selection of cues highlights the darker, more-paranoid aspects of the decade.

Throughout the film, Anderson recurringly utilizes an interesting musical technique that blurs the line between in-scene music (diagetic) and soundtrack (non-diagetic).  Oftentimes, someone will be listening to music within a scene only for Anderson to then transition to the next beat while changing the acoustic dynamics of the track to reflect that it’s now playing over the image.

The effect is similar to stream of consciousness–  a cascading flow of ocean waves washing over us and carrying us through into the next moment.  Though INHERENT VICE may be a faithful adaption of Thomas Pynchon’s novel, there’s so much overlap between the source material and PTA’s core thematic conceits that the final product also reads as decidedly Anderson-ian.

His recent explorations into the dynamics of power with THERE WILL BE BLOOD and THE MASTER is manifest in INHERENT VICEvia the ideological war being fought by Doc and Lt. Bjornsen.  They have diametrically-opposed outlooks on life, but they’re flip sides of the same coin: they’re both inclined to seek out the truth.

As such, their animosity and one-upmanship ironically resembles mismatched buddy cop comedies or the withering pettiness of sibling rivalries.  The off-kilter intimacies of non-blood familial relationships drive Anderson’s characters throughout his filmography, with INHERENT VICE’s contribution being the major subplot that endeavors to reunite Coy Harlingen with his wife and child.

Funnily enough, this subplot ultimately serves as the source of the film’s climactic emotional catharsis in the absence of a tidy resolution to the film’s primary plot.  Bizarre, dysfunctional sexual encounters are another prominent component of Anderson’s artistic aesthetic, a conceit that plays out in INHERENT VICE via a visit to a secret “massage” parlor, pornographic neckties, and a love scene between Doc and Shasta that plays out with such a prolonged sense of suspense and anticipation that it would make Sergio Leone jealous.

Perhaps the most significant aspect of INHERENT VICE as it pertains to its place within Anderson’s larger body of work is its engagement with California’s distinct cultural heritage.  Much like THE MASTER explored how the Golden State’s relaxed sense of independence made it a breeding ground for crackpot religious cults and delusional charlatans, INHERENT VICE examines how the potent cocktail of mind-altering substances and alternative lifestyle explorations in the 1960’s exploded into countless subcultures and communities.

Indeed, more so than many other films to my memory, INHERENT VICE captures that peculiar blend of paranoia and unease that plagued LA’s utopian communities in the wake of the Manson killings.  The sunny LA cityscape has always been a colorful place, culturally-speaking, and INHERENT VICE bypasses the glitz of Hollywood or the glamor of Beverly Hills in favor of the Southland’s drought-choked sprawl.

Distinctly Californian characters like hippies, neo-Nazis and cult leaders clash together in distinctly Californian locales like seaside coffee shops, rehabilitation facilities and canyon-side mansions.

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As his filmography has grown, it’s becoming more evident that Anderson has achieved something remarkable– with the exception of HARD EIGHT, the Golden State has served as a prominent connective tissue between all of his films.

Just as much as the 20th Century could be called “The American Century”, so too could it reasonably be referred to as the “The Californian Century” in that the state was an embodiment of the progressive ideals that drove American prosperity for much of last century.

Anderson’s films mostly take place in California, spanning a wide variety of time periods.  The span is so wide, in fact, that nearly every decade of the 20th Century (save for the 30’s) is represented at some point in Anderson’s work.

THERE WILL BE BLOOD covered the birth and growth of the state from the turn of the century to the late 20’s.  The postwar boom times of the 40’s and 50’s are the setting of THE MASTER.  INHERENT VICE takes place in 1970 but contains flashbacks to the 60’s.

OOGIE NIGHTS’ decadent excess spans both the 1970’s and the 80’s.  MAGNOLIA andPUNCH-DRUNK LOVE explore California’s evolving sense of identity during the 90’s and the turn of the new millennium.  If you were to watch Anderson’s output in chronological order according to their story’s time periods, you’d come away with a weirdly alternate, yet comprehensive history of the American Century as seen through California’s distinct perspective.

INHERENT VICE is the kind of film that’s not easy to love– it takes multiple viewings to even understand its plot, let alone embrace the idiosyncratic quirks of Anderson’s vision.  When it premiered at the New York Film Festival to polarized reviews, word of mouth began to spread that Anderson had made an objectively bad film.

Critics praised the performances of his cast, but they all pretty much agreed that the story was unsalvageable– an overindulgent failure.  Box office receipts were consistent with this reaction, confirming INHERENT VICE’s cultural reputation as a huge misfire from one of our most treasured filmmakers.

Any Oscar campaign plans were probably scaled back instantly, but even the mountain of disappointment that greeted the film upon its release couldn’t stop it from earning Oscar nominations for Best Adapted Screenplay and Best Costume Design.

The collective frustration with the film is very real, most likely a reaction stemming from only one or two viewings at best– relatively snap judgments made by people who don’t care to commit to untangling the film’s myriad mysteries.

Like so many films before it, INHERENT VICE might simply be a victim of unrealistic expectations– after all, Anderson’s previous two works were staggeringly confident and majestically executed, and if the director’s rabid fanbase was expecting more of the same, they were bound to be sorely disappointed.

Such expectations tend to deny filmmakers like Anderson their right as artists to grow and experiment, and anyone who expects their favorite artist to deliver the same thing again and again like its some mechanized process surely misses the entire point of art.

Of course, INHERENT VICE could also simply just be a bad film– it ultimately comes down to individual taste. Just like the unattainable mystery at the center of the film, there will probably never be a definitive critical consensus as to INHERENT VICE’s place in the cinematic landscape.

If I was a betting man, I’d wager that it’ll slowly accumulate a cult appreciation not unlike THE BIG LEBOWSKI as multiple viewings increasingly reveal the full scope of Anderson’s irreverent vision.

What’s less ambiguous about INHERENT VICE is its place within Anderson’s body of work.  As of this writing, Anderson is forty-five years old and has seven features to his credit.  It’s hard to imagine that the hotshot kid who made BOOGIE NIGHTS is nearly fifty now.

By middle age, most successful directors have found an aesthetic that maximizes their personal strengths, inevitably settling into a long period of what one could call beneficial stagnance– yet it’s stagnance nonetheless.  Treading water keeps you afloat, but it doesn’t actually take you anywhere.

Midway through his career, Anderson seems to have found his strongest suit only to throw it away in hopes he might stumble across an even stronger one.  He’s experimenting; pushing the boundaries of his voice.  The results may be uneven, but they keep his perspective fresh and honest.

The irreverent playfulness on display in INHERENT VICE marks a departure from his string of John Huston-inspired power portraits, and while it’s a safe bet that Anderson won’t bring this film’s stylistic approach to his next, he most definitely will continue to refine and rework what it means to be “A Paul Thomas Anderson Film”.


JOANNA NEWSOM “SAPOKANIKAN” MUSIC VIDEO (2015)

In August of 2015, director Paul Thomas Anderson dropped a new music video on the unsuspecting masses.  The piece features his INHERENT VICE star– singer/songwriter Joanna Newsom– performing her new single “SAPOKANIKAN” as she walks through the chilly Manhattan streets at twilight hour.  On the surface, it’s a simple performance piece that’s so low-tech in its execution that seemingly anyone could have done it.  Indeed, upon first glance, there doesn’t seem to be any indication of the prestigious filmmaker’s participation whatsoever.

 It could just as well be a scrappy film school student’s work.  However, Anderson’s deceptively simple approach here reveals some interesting insights for those who would delve deeper.

“SAPOKANIKAN” is a stark departure from Anderson’s previous work in the visual sense, but it stays consistent with his artistic conceits and thematic fascinations.  The piece appears to have been shot digitally, which is a notable factor considering Anderson’s preference for celluloid within his feature catalogue.  It also appears that Anderson is operating the camera himself, shooting handheld in extremely guerrilla fashion using only the natural light afforded by their most-likely-stolen locations.

 The piece’s spotty, inconsistent focus is further evidence of the extremely lo-fi nature of the shoot.  Overall, there’s a great deal of looseness to Anderson’s approach– the piece comes off less like a music video and more like a documentary: very improvisational and naturalistic.

Anderson’s work as of late has demonstrated a fascination with portraiture– a conceit that has generated some of the most affecting close-ups in recent memory.  This dovetails quite nicely with the format of a performance video, allowing Anderson to indulge in compositions that put Newsom’s ethereal visage front and center against a twinkling backdrop of fuzzy light orbs.

When it comes to music videos, Anderson has always been picky about which artists he chooses to collaborate with.  Traditionally, the artist in question is either a close friend/lover (like Fiona Apple) or has worked with him on his features in some capacity (like Aimee Mann or Michael Penn).  Specifically, the artists he chooses to direct videos for tend to be strong-minded and quasi-eccentric female singer-songwriters.

Joanna Newsom, being both a left-of-mainstream singer/songwriter and the wispy, lilting voice of INHERENT VICE’s quasi-narrator/commentator Sortilege, carries on this proud tradition.

“SAPOKANIKAN” is hard to place within Anderson’s artistic trajectory, simply because it seems so off-the-cuff and improvisational.  Without any further commentary by Anderson or Newsom themselves, it’s difficult to tell whether the lo-fi, handheld aesthetic was a result of the production’s limited shooting circumstances or if Anderson is moving away from the structural formalism that marked his camerawork in favor of the loose, playful vibe he began exploring in INHERENT VICE.

 If recent developments on his feature slate are any indication, it might be the latter– he’s reportedly attached to write and direct a new version of the classic children’s tale, “Pinocchio”.  It may very well be several years before we’re able to discern how “SAPOKANIKAN” informs Anderson’s evolving aesthetic, but in the meantime, at least we have a charming promotional piece for one of the music industry’s most enchanting artists.


JUNUN (2015)

From the outside perspective of American culture, India is often regarded as a faraway land of personal and creative rediscovery.  Many American artists have made the journey in a bid to escape the confines of Anglo-Saxon cultural values as well as their own individual stylistic paradigms– Wes Anderson did it with 2007’s THE DARJEELING LIMITED, and Danny Boyle followed swiftly after with the Oscar-winning SLUMDOG MILLIONAIRE (2008).

Following the ambivalent reception of his 2014 feature INHERENT VICE, acclaimed director Paul Thomas Anderson made the journey himself, tagging along with his regular composer (and Radiohead guitarist) Jonny Greenwood as he embarked on an ambitious concept album called “Junun”.  In a way, the trip was a chance for Anderson to repay the creative debt he owed to Greenwood, whose eclectic musical taste had played a crucial role in the director’s mid-career stylistic reinvention.

The resulting work, 2015’s JUNUN, is notable within Anderson’s filmography for several reasons, chief among them being that it is his first documentary as well as his first substantial foray into the digital video format.  The central conceit of the piece traces Greenwood’s creation and recording of the album in collaboration with Israeli composer Shye Ben Tzur and local brass ensemble The Rajasthan Express.

The music, recorded inside of the ancient Mehrangarh Fort in Jodphur, takes its inspiration from a variety of Eastern influences and customs while blending in a combination of spoken languages like Hindi, Hebrew and Urdu, as well as hints of Radiohead’s post-modern sound via Greenwood’s avant-garde touch.   The 1.85:1 HD presentation is relatively unadorned and naturalistic, perhaps even a little lo-fi looking– apparently, a more polished visual presentation was planned, but Anderson’s camera gear was held up by customs and he had to make do with his own personal camera and one of his producer’s drones.

Thankfully, we live in a golden age of DSLR cinematography, so Anderson’s consumer camera set-up proves more than capable at capturing the majestic grit of the ancient environs or the stunning character of the light– be it either dusty daylight or amber-soaked candlelight.  Anderson operates the camera himself, taking his cues from the cinema verite documentary style pioneered by D.A. Pennebaker and the Maysles brothers.

 He alternates between locked-off tripod shots that studiously observe Greenwood and Company’s creative process, and shot-from-the-hip handheld shots that grab fleeting unplanned images in a bid to establish a sense of temporal immediacy and impermanence.  As befitting a documentary about the process of creation, Anderson makes no effort to obscure his own process– on-the-fly ISO changes, various repositions of his tripod and compositions, and even his own off-camera voice prompts are left intact within the final edit.

 He also incorporates newer documentary techniques like timelapse footage and economically-achieved aerials via the aforementioned drone.

JUNUN is utterly devoid of most of Anderson’s signature stylistic traits as a director, arguably a case of the director exercising gracious restraint so as not to overpower his regular composer’s own creative message.  Indeed, the presence of Greenwood in the first place is the most visible signifier of Anderson’s participation.

His long fascination with the cultural significance of the video format, last explored in 1999’s MAGNOLIA, reappears in JUNUN not as critique or commentary, but simply as an acquisition format chosen for the needs of the shoot.  Beyond that, there’s only fleeting instances that bear the imprint of Anderson’s idiosyncratic vision: the brief appearance of a harmonium calling back to PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE (2002), or the frequent cutaways to a pigeon watching from the rafters that serve to highlight the director’s inherent mischievousness.

Though little seen by audiences at large, JUNUN was well-received by critics.  After the film’s debut at the 2015 New York Film Festival, Anderson embraced the emergent market of digital distribution, releasing it exclusively on the social film site Mubi before making it available on iTunes.  By bypassing traditional markets, he was able to access his rabid fan base directly, and more immediately satiate their hunger for new work.  JUNUN stands on its own merits as an intriguing insight into the creative process behind an admittedly fantastic album, but the question remains: how exactly does it fit into Anderson’s continual evolution as a cinematic artist?

From a technical standpoint, the film seems to follow a precedent set by INHERENT VICE, which saw Anderson turn away from the restrained formalism that marked THERE WILL BE BLOOD and THE MASTER, finding new inspiration in chaos and spontaneity.  However, there’s a profound emotional shift also unfolding here– the joy that Greenwood and his collaborators achieve while recording in ancient surroundings approaches an altered state of mind– the act of creation and travel is a transcendent experience for them.

Whereas INHERENT VICE’s characters achieved enlightenment with chemicals and substances, JUNUN’s high is purely natural.  Anderson can’t help but be dosed by the infectious rapture of his collaborators, and as a result, delivers a lively meditation on creation and culture that expands his own artistic horizons far beyond the Californian landscape that so profoundly shaped his previous worldview.


JOANNA NEWSOM “DIVERS” MUSIC VIDEO (2015)

The production of INHERENT VICE in 2014 begat a particularly strong working partnership between director Paul Thomas Anderson and cast member Joanna Newsom, who played the film’s ethereal narrator.  The momentum of that collaboration spilled over into Newsom’s other career as a singer / songwriter as she prepared to release a new album titled “Divers”.

She recruited Anderson to helm the video for the album’s first single “SAPOKANIKAN” (2015), and when it came time to make the video for the album’s title track “DIVERS” (2015), Anderson again provided his services.  With this development, Anderson and Newsom had seemed to cement a platonic version of the creative partnership he shared with former flame Fiona Apple in the late 90’s and early 2000’s.

Whereas the video for “SAPOKANIKAN” was quite improvisational in its use of handheld location shooting and natural light, “DIVERS” takes the opposite tack, opting for an ultra-controlled and disciplined execution.  The video was filmed at the New York City studio of abstract artist Kim Keever, whose particular aesthetic gives the video its central idea.

Anderson places Newsom center-frame amidst a fantastical miniature mountainscape, lit to resemble a baroque Romantic-era painting.  As the piece plays, Anderson slowly– almost imperceptibly– pulls the camera back to reveal more of the landscape, while brightly-colored clouds blossom in the sky.  At this point, we realize that the visual trickery is all occurring in-camera– Anderson is shooting through the prism of an aquarium with perfectly-still water, and the beautiful, ethereal cloud-blooming effect is actually colored sand being poured into it.

After the relative stylistic anonymity that marked “SAPOKANIKAN” and his India-set music documentary JUNUN (2015), “DIVERS” finds Anderson returning to familiar thematic territory.  The fascination with portraiture that marked THERE WILL BE BLOOD (2007) and THE MASTER (2012) is front and center here, with Anderson’s choice to focus on the close-up contours of Newsom’s facial features acting as an echo of the mountains that surround her.

 The decision to use Keevers’ expressionistic aesthetic recalls Anderson’s collaboration with the late digital artist Jeremy Blake on PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE’s painterly interludes, further establishing the director’s appreciation for the work of artists across other visual mediums.

In keeping with Anderson’s lifelong defiance of convention, “DIVERS” received an unconventional rollout for a music video.  Whereas most are now simply released into the online ether and supported by write ups from a handful of tastemaking music blogs, this particular music video instead premiered in local arthouse theaters throughout New York City, only making its online debut after a brief period of exclusivity.  Reaction to the video was mostly positive, with many lavishing praise on Anderson’s stunning visuals and unique approach.

At the time of this writing (April 2016), it’s currently unknown what Anderson’s next directorial effort will be.  For a while, he was attached to write and direct a new live-action adaptation of the classic fable PINOCCHIO, which undoubtedly would have been an interesting take to say the least.  The stylistic experimentation and embrace of chaos that’s shaped his most recent output leaves us perplexed and unsure what his next move will be– which is exactly where the unpredictable auteur would have us be.

It’s hard to believe that the boy wonder who took American independent cinema by storm is now a middle-aged man approaching 50, a fact that only makes his staggering accomplishments in the intervening few decades that much more astonishing.  Whatever comes next, it will be sure to intrigue, inspire, surprise, and shock us– and it will further establish Anderson himself as one of the most vital and important filmmakers of our time.


RADIOHEAD: “DAYDREAMING” MUSIC VIDEO (2016)

Director Paul Thomas Anderson has long been tangentially connected to the avant-garde rock group Radiohead via guitarist Jonny Greenwood, so it was only a matter of time until he collaborated with the band directly.  In 2016, he did just that, releasing a video for “DAYDREAMING”, a track called off their ninth album– the first since their 2011 release “The King Of Limbs”.

The piece features Radiohead frontman Thom Yorke walking through various locations and environments, stitched together as if it were one cohesive labyrinth.  Anderson makes a repeated visual motif out of doors, stairs, and other transitional architectural structures, imbuing them via the magic of editing with the power to effortlessly transport Yorke across space and time.

Captured in cool, neutral tones with what appears to be a mix of conventional celluloid film and digital acquisition,  “DAYDREAMING” bears Anderson’s cinematic stamp much more explicitly than his recent videos for Joanna Newsom.  Though broken up into a series of vignettes, the video’s editing essentially structures itself as a handful of extended tracking shots, a camera movement technique Anderson staked out for himself as an artistic signature in early works like BOOGIE NIGHTS (1997) and MAGNOLIA (1999).

 Whereas he almost exclusively used the Steadicam to achieve these types of shots before, here Anderson also uses handheld camerawork, giving himself a wider berth for spontaneous inspiration.  His camera consistently pushes or pulls us along the Z axis, beckoning us toward or repulsing us away from a singular point of convergence.  Meanwhile, a shallow depth of field works to obscure that distance, lathering the video in a coat of mystery.

“DAYDREAMING” also alludes to some of Anderson’s core artistic conceits, namely the iconography of California and the compositional values of portraiture.  While the various spaces that Yorke stumbles through are meant to be taken as generic, geographically-speaking, they nevertheless remain characteristic of the Californian landscape: sunny beaches, crowded laundromats, grungy industrial spaces, and sleepy bungalows.  Anderson also finds a few opportunities to dwell on Yorke’s face as he stands still, framing his weathered visage inside of a tight portrait.

The video operates primarily on dream logic, and this dreamlike quality– of being removed from an objective, sober reality– generates a feeling of consistency with Anderson’s other output from this period.  “DAYDREAMING” speaks to Anderson’s recent exploration of alternative distribution techniques, in that he unleashed the video on an unsuspecting populace; there was little to no advance notice that there was even going to be a new Radiohead album, let alone a stunning video from Anderson to accompany it.

 As a band, Radiohead has shown a preternatural ability to harness the power of the Internet to find innovative distribution avenues.  If his recent efforts are any indication, Anderson is quickly mastering these same skills for himself.


RADIOHEAD: “PRESENT TENSE” MUSIC VIDEO (2016)

Following his surprise music video, “DAYDREAMING” for Radiohead’s surprise 2016 album, A Moon Shaped Pool, director Paul Thomas Anderson dropped yet another collaboration with the iconic art-rock outfit out of the warm, blue September sky.  In delivering his second video for the album, Anderson has proved himself a cinematic soul-mate to the avant-garde musical character of Radiohead’s new album.

The piece, for the track “PRESENT TENSE”, dramatically scales back any stylistic pyrotechnics in favor of a subdued, intimate performance video.  Sitting against a bare-bones backdrop in warm amber light so dim it could almost be candlelight, Thom Yorke and Jonny Greenwood perform the track through its entirety with their voices, their acoustic guitars, and even a Roland CR78 drum machine.

 Anderson alternates his camera between two separate setups, framing the two bandmates in static medium shots before punching in for a few shallow-focus closeups that further demonstrate Anderson’s fascination with the visual language of portraits.  Yorke and Greenwood give themselves entirely to their performances, achieving a heightened state of mind that calls to mind the similar expressions of artistic rapture evidenced in Anderson’s 2015 music documentary JUNUN.  

From “BURN THE WITCH” to Anderson’s own “DAYDREAMING”, the music videos that have accompanied the release of A Moon Shaped Pool have been nothing less than creatively-arresting works of art.  “PRESENT TENSE” is a much more subdued effort in that sense, but it nevertheless resonates with the conceptual clarity and restrained profundity that has become a hallmark of Anderson’s mature aesthetic.


RADIOHEAD MUSIC VIDEO, “THE NUMBERS” (2016)

The entirety of director Paul Thomas Anderson’s 2016 output has been exclusively for celebrated art-rock outfit Radiohead, an association that no doubt came about via Anderson’s frequent collaborations with guitarist Jonny Greenwood on the score for his last three features.  The release of prior music videos for “DAYDREAMING” and “PRESENT TENSE” were both surprise events in the spring and summer, respectively, and in the autumn, Anderson released a third surprise video– this time for Radiohead’s track “THE NUMBERS”.

This particular piece recalls the casual, intimate vibe that Anderson created previously for “PRESENT TENSE”, setting up a vignette that finds frontman Thom Yorke and Greenwood sitting on a park bench and performing the song to the accompaniment of a CR78 drum machine.  “THE NUMBERS” take the opposite tack in its visual presentation, setting the action during a bright, sunny day in the California mountains.

Strung together in a series of four distinct shots, “THE NUMBERS” possesses more of a formal approach than its predecessor, tracking in on its subjects from a wide establishing frame via an elegant dolly move.

Indeed, the piece is an interesting mix of the formal and casual; a tone entirely appropriate for this current period of growth and experimentation Anderson seems to be undergoing.  Nestled somewhere between the classical camerawork of his narrative features and the handheld naturalism of JUNUN“THE NUMBERS” further implies Anderson’s hand via the backdrop of Los Angeles’ dramatic mountain vistas and the subtle portraiture of Yorke’s face, captured at an oblique angle.

It remains to be seen if Anderson and Radiohead will collaborate on any further performance videos, but it’s a safe bet that the director’s experimentations here will lay the groundwork for whatever form his aesthetic takes in his next feature effort next year.


“VALENTINE” (2017)

Director Paul Thomas Anderson’s output since his 2014 feature INHERENT VICE has been emblematic of a seasoned visionary dropping the selectiveness implied by his “prestige filmmaker” status and rediscovering the joys of artistic expression for sheer creativity’s sake.  The 2015 music documentary JUNUN is arguably his most substantial work in this vein, with him embracing the mobility and cost-effectiveness of digital filmmaking for the first time in a bid to capture the recording of the eponymous Jonny Greenwood album.

 His ensuing trio of music videos for Radiohead’s 2016 album “A Moon Shaped Pool” doubled down on this approach, with the latter two in particular content to simply sit and observe Greenwood and Thom Yorke perform the respective tracks acoustically in simple surroundings.

JUNUN and the Radiohead videos were executed under relative secrecy, with the former making a surprise debut at the New York Film Festival and the Radiohead videos dropping on the unsuspecting blogerati with no advance warning.  2017 looks to continue this phase of Anderson’s career, judging by the similarly-surprising release of his music video for indie rock band Haim’s new single,  “RIGHT NOW”.

 Even more surprising is the revelation that “RIGHT NOW” is simply the first third of a longer short film called VALENTINE, so named for the recording studio that the short takes place in.  Clocking in at a brisk fourteen minutes, VALENTINE was produced in secret by Sarah Murphy, Albert Chi, and Erica Frauman, and documents the Haim sisters as they perform/record three tracks off their first album since their 2013 debut.

Anderson’s involvement with the project is certainly unexpected, given his relative celebrity in regards to Haim’s own artistic profile, but just like his prior music videos for Fiona Apple and Radiohead, his connection here is highly personal.  He had reached out to them strictly as a fan around the time of their debut, but through their correspondence, he came to discover that the trio’s mother had been his art teacher (1).

“RIGHT NOW” came about specifically when the band asked him down to their studio for his creative input on the track– a visit that apparently inspired him to document the song’s recording right then and there (1), subsequently leading to the expansion of the project under VALENTINE’s current scope.  Serving as his own cinematographer,  Anderson shoots VALENTINE in a manner indicative of the extremely tight prep window, but which nonetheless exhibits his impeccable taste for composition and movement.

He brings his compelling cinematic eye to the 35mm film image, harnessing the soft ambient light of the studio to create a cold color palette of cerulean & steel tones.  The piece creates a minimal aesthetic by stringing together a series of long takes that echo the spare, deconstructionist nature of the tracks themselves.  Anderson’s camera evokes the sensation of searching as it smoothly tracks, pans, and zooms around the studio and documents the three Haim sisters laying down the tracks using a variety of instruments.

 In this regard, VALENTINE’s execution is relatively straightforward and documentary, but its subtle emphasis on the music’s physical construction via its constituent parts evokes the transcendent joys of artistic creation.  Indeed, VALENTINE is just as much a celebration of creation as it is a portrait of Haim as a band– to the extent that Anderson doesn’t bother to frame out his film lights from several shots, thus evoking the particular joy that the act of filmmaking brings him.

 Anderson typically frames his close-ups in a manner resembling portraiture; a conceit that ably captures the Haim sisters as they lose themselves in the expression of self via their music.  Like the musicians featured in JUNUN, the Haim sisters seem to enter a state of heightened internal connection to their creative engines, manifest outwardly in facial expressions one might describe simply as “rapture”.

VALENTINE would follow the release pattern of his recent musical work, dropping out of the sky with little in the way of advance warning and generating an exclusive “cool-kid” vibe by screening exclusively at the Film Forum in New York for a brief period before making its Youtube debut after months of buzz.  The film might be understated in its execution, but it is an impeccably-crafted and profoundly resonant hybrid of music video and short documentary.

 Haim couldn’t have asked for a better collaborator to kick off the release of their second album, and given Anderson’s history of doing multiple videos for a single album, it wouldn’t be surprising if they were to coax him back for another round.  In the meantime, the cinematic community waits feverishly for his next feature– a reunion with THERE WILL BE BLOOD’s Daniel Day-Lewis set in the fashion world of midcentury London and slated for release this Christmas..


HAIM MUSIC VIDEO: “LITTLE OF YOUR LOVE” (2017)

Towards the end of a particularly prolific year of musical collaborations with zeitgeist-y rock icons like Radiohead, director Paul Thomas Anderson embarked on a couple projects with Haim, an indie band comprised of three sisters celebrated for an old-fashioned sound that was nonetheless cutting edge at the same time.

Following the production of their 2017 short film VALENTINE, Anderson and the Haim sisters reunited on a music video for their track “LITTLE OF YOUR LOVE”, an infectious, high-energy pop anthem.  The piece is vintage PTA, adopting a vibe that’s highly reminiscent of his 1997 classic BOOGIE NIGHTS, but it also evidences the remarkable growth he’s undergone in the twenty years since.

The piece is relatively simple in concept, consisting of the Haim sisters singing to camera while dancing along with the crowd in a large tavern.  The execution is anything but, consisting of a series of long takes and fluid tracking shots that almost seem to dance along with the sisters as they sing to camera.  Anderson seems to shoot the video in the same way he shot VALENTINE-– serving as his own cinematographer and shooting on 35mm film.

Aside from the unmistakable BOOGIE NIGHTS vibe, “LITTLE OF YOUR LOVE” bears the signature of its maker through its San Fernando Valley setting (seen in the opening exterior shot with the iconic Hand Car Wash sign of Studio City’s Ventura Boulevard in the background), as well as the constant use of compositional conceits that evoke the style of portraiture.

Following Anderson’s short-form release model as of late, “LITTLE OF YOUR LOVE” dropped out of the sky and landed onto the internet without any advance warning, gifting us with a wholesome little Andersonian snack ahead of his latest feature slated for release this holiday season.  The video itself continues Anderson’s string of simple, yet artfully-imagined performance pieces that bring to the music video genre the same kind of eccentric nuance and inspired vision that he’s brought to bear on theatrical features.


“PHANTOM THREAD” (2017)

As one of the most acclaimed artistic voices in contemporary filmmaking, director Paul Thomas Anderson enjoys a level of prestige that’s virtually unmatched by others of his generation.  He’s gotten to this level by refusing to be anything other than himself: an idiosyncratic kid from southern California’s San Fernando Valley with eccentric artistic tastes and an unabiding compassion for flawed characters.

Having already made no less than two of the most cherished pictures of the 1990’s — BOOGIE NIGHTS (1997) and MAGNOLIA (1999), Anderson had seemingly reached an altogether different zenith starting with 2007’s THERE WILL BE BLOOD.  This film marked a titanic evolution in his artistry, sparked by its intense meditation on the nature of power & ambition as perverted by a ruthless oil tycoon.

2012’s THE MASTER fanned the flames with a similarly-intense exploration filtered through the prism of a Scientology-adjacent cult.  Anderson’s subsequent picture, INHERENT VICE (2014), stumbled slightly in terms of its reception, but has nevertheless managed to endure in our collective cinematic memory thanks to its stoner dream logic.

Most directors who reach this level of artistic excellence are all too happy to stagnate— it’s safer and easier to go with what’s been working, even if it does tend to yield diminishing returns.  Anderson, however, distinguishes himself yet again, having subsequently embarked on a period of intense personal experimentation with several short-form music videos and the verite-style documentary JUNUN (2015).

These projects would serve to refresh his artistic perspective, offering him the opportunity to experiment with new techniques in a pared-down environment.  Anderson is — if nothing else — a master of self-reinvention, and much like his experimentation with short-form slapstick comedy in the early 2000’s was followed by THERE WILL BE BLOOD’s staggering creative revelations, this new period of growth was setting the stage for yet another showcase of his artistic ascent.

 Of course, he would need the right idea, which he found one day while laid up sick in bed and, in his vulnerable state, struck by the tenderness and care evidenced by his wife, actress Maya Rudolph (1).  He found he could plant this tiny seed of emotion into his developing interest in male fashion designers— specifically Cristobal Balenciaga of Spain, whose strict, “monastic” approach to his work/life balance provided the template for Anderson’s emerging concept about a similar figure dressing royalty and socialites in 1950’s London (1).

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The resulting film, 2017’s PHANTOM THREAD, would prove unlike anything Anderson has ever made before; its oblique narrative about the erratic romance between a powerful man and his seemingly-demure wife sublimely coinciding with the zeitgeist of the #TimesUp movement and its unveiling of toxic power structures.

 The film marks something of a ten-year reunion between Anderson and his THERE WILL BE BLOOD star, Daniel Day-Lewis, building upon the intimacy of their previous collaboration to the point that Day-Lewis actively collaborated with Anderson on PHANTOM THREAD’s screenplay (indeed, the director has conceded in interviews that Day-Lewis should have received some sort of co-writing credit (1)).

 The towering nature of Day-Lewis’ performance is to be expected, but his character of the renowned English dressmaker Reynolds Woodcock surprises us at every juncture.  By turns sweet and ferocious, Woodcock’s urbane sophistication & disarming charm floats atop a churning, roiling brew of discipline, ruthlessness, and tar-black venom.

Molded in the template of THERE WILL BE BLOOD’s Daniel Plainview or THE MASTER’s Lancaster Dodd, the conceited titans portrayed in his previous meditations on power, Reynolds Woodcock has chosen to marry himself to his work.  Every waking minute that isn’t spent eating is spent on designing his elegant dresses— an obsession that Day-Lewis imbues with his signature authenticity and studied intensity, thanks to a year of apprenticeship under New York City Ballet’s head costume designer, Marc Happel (1).

 His elegant, impeccably-dressed urbanity fuels this highly-disciplined lifestyle, drawing a steady parade of short-term female companions that are so easily cast aside like unwanted leftovers.

Indeed, the only woman that’s managed to stay close to Woodcock is his sister Cyril, played by Lesley Manville in an Academy Award-nominated performance overflowing with icy pragmatism.  She runs the day-to-day operations of House of Woodcock, allowing Reynolds the freedom to focus on the creative; as such, the two are inseparable, never missing a meal together (much to the chagrin of his short-lived lovers).  Woodcock’s orderly, monastic life is soon upturned by a chance meeting with a waitress at a small cafe in the English countryside.

This demure and quiet woman is named Alma, but underneath her sweet small-town surface lies a fierce, strong-willed spirit that stands in stark contrast to any love interest that Woodcock’s ever encountered.  French actress Vicky Krieps excels in the role, puncturing holes in Woodcock’s ordered lifestyle as she infiltrates deeper into the House of Woodcock’s operation. Their resulting chemistry is unlike any love story we’ve ever seen— one where affection is shown not by kissing or hugging, but by exertions of power.

Woodcock’s hope is that Alma will eventually fit neatly into his rigidly-defined lifestyle, but she refuses to yield to his egomaniacal expectations.  Instead, she strips him down so that she may build him back up better than before. She does this by lacing his food with the powder from a poisonous mushroom— just enough to knock him flat on his back with a nasty fever for a couple days, at which point she can exert her own power by nursing him back to health. It’s an admittedly bizarre approach, to be sure, but it’s also a uniquely compelling and perversely beautiful conceit that speaks to the unmatched idiosyncrasy of Anderson’s storytelling.

With a production budget of $35 million, PHANTOM THREAD distinguishes itself as one of the most expensive films that Anderson has ever made — second only to 1999’s MAGNOLIA (1).  This relatively-lavish spread of resources, furnished by Focus Features and Megan Ellison’s Annapurna Pictures, enables him to realize an elegant vision of mid century European class and sophistication without losing his off-kilter edge.

Anderson employs the classical conceits of old-fashioned filmmaking to reinforce this vision, and in the process creates an economy of craft that’s profoundly subtle and uniquely his.  As one can tell in the organic veneer of grain present throughout (especially in close-up shots that linger on the texture of various fabrics) PHANTOM THREAD was shot on 35mm film, but this — nor Anderson’s continued insistence on celluloid over digital in his theatrical work — is not what distinguishes the film’s cinematography.

Having operated the camera himself on his recent music videos and JUNUN, Anderson had been slowly improving his technical expertise as a cinematographer; when longtime collaborator Robert Elswit proved unavailable to return for PHANTOM THREAD (apparently a result of a rapidly deteriorating professional relationship), he felt his experience was sufficient enough to take on camera duties here as well.  As such, PHANTOM THREAD doesn’t have an officially credited cinematographer.  Anderson simply absorbs those responsibilities into his job description as a director, relying on the wisdom of his gaffers and camera operators (as well as his own intimate knowledge of the format) to get him the results he wants (1).

Said results are nothing short of mesmerizing, with Anderson’s melodramatic rendering of color and light recalling the vivid aesthetic of midcentury directors like Douglas Sirk or Alfred Hitchcock.  Production designer Mark Tildesley assists Anderson’s realization of 1950’s-era London as a world of cold hues, creamy neutrals, and the occasional punch of warmth.

This heavily restricted color palette reflects the regimented order and discipline of the House of Woodcock, further reinforced by the pristine, anonymizing white coats his employees wear.  Indeed, Woodcock’s vibrant dresses are the only source of saturated color, and rightfully so— PHANTOM THREAD’s somber color conceits better allow costume designer Mark Bridges’ Oscar-winning work to leap off the screen with breathtaking ferocity.

The 1.85:1 frame gives Anderson plenty of room to fashion his characteristically-compelling compositions: a beautiful wide shot of Woodcock designing a dress for Alma by the light of the moon comes immediately to mind, as does an extended tracking shot that follows Woodcock through a raucous, labyrinthine New Year’s Eve party as he searches for her amidst the crowd.

Even the close-ups possess a resonance that eludes the work of Anderson’s contemporaries, imbued with a profound magnetism by virtue of his framing of faces in the style of portraiture. Just as the appearance of Alma poses a disruptive force upon Woodcock’s regimented lifestyle, so too does Anderson subvert the elegance of his classical camerawork with the expressionistic techniques of New Hollywood filmmaking: BARRY LYNDON-esque slow zooms, the breaking of the fourth wall, and the occasional handheld shot (its relative scarcity making certain scenes like Woodcock’s woozy, post-poisoning collapse all the more visceral).

Anderson’s public-facing modesty over his supposed inexperience as a cameraman belies his profound grasp of film’s technical aspects.  Indeed, it’s hard to think of any other word than “impeccable” when it comes to describing PHANTOM THREAD’s sterling visual presentation.  As his artistry has matured, Anderson has increasingly shown the kind of comprehensive mastery of the medium exhibited by consummate filmmakers like Stanley Kubrick.

Anderson’s ability to speak the language of key technical departments facilitates strong relationships with recurring collaborators like editor Dylan Tichenor and his producing partners JoAnne Sellar and Daniel Lupi.  PHANTOM THREAD also continues Anderson’s fruitful partnership with composer and Radiohead guitarist Jonny Greenwood, who’s Oscar-nominated work here stands in a class entirely above his previous compositions for the director.

The score lends an elegant romanticism to Anderson’s lush images, employing a classy, piano-based theme that reinforces the urbane sophistication of Woodcock’s world. A handful of sub-themes grow and evolve along with the film’s central romance, gradually adding complex string orchestrations aside from other elements.

This approach culminates in the scene where Alma mixes poison mushrooms into Woodcock’s dinner, with a dramatic, bombastic string arrangement instantly recalling BARRY LYNDON’s usage of Handel’s “Sarabande”— and further reinforcing the Kubrickian atmosphere that Anderson has managed to conjure around the entirety of PHANTOM THREAD.  Several piano renditions of torch songs and jazz standards like “My Foolish Heart” populate the soundtrack, further capturing the distinct time period and contained lifestyles on display.

PHANTOM THREAD roughly follows the thematic template that Anderson fashioned with predecessors like THERE WILL BE BLOOD and THE MASTER, in that the film’s narrative paints a towering portrait of a powerful, complicated, and eccentric man.  Reynolds Woodcock is the natural successor to figures like Daniel Plainview and Lancaster Dodd, each a titan of his own industry, cutting mythic silhouettes that loom over their respective eras.

One could discern these anti-heroes as emblematic of a certain kind of toxic masculinity— one that leverages power and influence in service only to ego, greed, and vanity. They are charismatic in the manipulative manner that these types of people usually are, blessed with a dense, undeniable gravity that pulls other people into their orbit.  Anderson’s characters are guilty pleasures, made particularly attractive by dint of their crackling wit and biting turns of phrase.

His gift for writing idiosyncratic and endlessly-quotable dialogue molds figures like Plainview, Dodd — and now, Woodcock — as eminently-watchable, silver-tongued serpents. This is especially true of Woodcock in particular, his ridiculous name a deliberate decision made by his mischievous creator to perpetually torpedo the dressmaker’s practiced self-seriousness.  He’s always ready with a quip as darkly comedic as it is poison-tipped.

Day-Lewis’ brilliance as an actor is particularly valuable in this regard, giving him an effortless ability to confidently deliver impossible, bizarre lines like “Are you a secret agent here to kill me? Show me your gun!” or “I’m admiring my own gallantry for eating it the way you prepared it”.

Where Woodcock stands apart from figures like Plainview and Dodd is in the fact that he has a companion who can match him blow for blow.  Plainview had no such companion to speak of, even giving up his own adopted son in the pursuit of profit. Dodd’s wife was strong in her own quiet way, preferring instead to work in the shadows and bolster her power by reinforcing her husband’s with an almost-Machiavellian calculation.

PHANTOM THREAD’s Alma possesses a fundamental independence all her own; a resolute defiance that quickly brings Woodcock to heel.  The old saying goes: “behind every great man is a great woman”, but Alma refuses to be a passive agent in Woodcock’s growth.  She has a variety of qualities with which to check Woodcock’s aggression, but — unlike the male protagonists of Anderson’s power portraits — yelling and screaming are not amongst them. She deploys her compassion strategically, quickly making herself indispensable.

Anderson’s decision to frame the narrative from Alma’s point of view allows the audience to more-fully experience her complex inner life, while at the same time revealing more of the personal sensitivity to the female experience that allows him to craft compelling, multidimensional women characters.  Indeed, Alma stands as the latest (and perhaps most vivid) figure in a long procession of memorable heroines throughout the director’s filmography.

With the exception of HARD EIGHT and its Reno setting, nearly all of Anderson’s films have taken place in his native California.  PHANTOM THREAD’s British backdrop marks a significant departure from Anderson’s norm— a development that seems to have sparked a notable shift forward in his artistic evolution.  The experience of watching PHANTOM THREAD, even after having seen it multiple times, is a breathtaking one.

There’s a unique aura that envelopes the film, as if it has already attained the silver glow of classic cinema.  This sheen blinds one from the awareness that it didn’t make very much money at the box office; frankly, its financial performance is an irrelevant footnote in light of Anderson’s monumental artistic achievement.

The word “masterpiece” is thrown around far too often (I’m likely guilty of some misuse myself), but PHANTOM THREAD most certainly qualifies as one when the experience of watching it evokes the same awe and admiration as a timeless film that’s been around for generations.

Unlike many masterpieces of its ilk, however, PHANTOM THREAD would enjoy the luxury of being celebrated in its own time; numerous critics put the film at or near the top of their annual year-end lists, culminating in the aforementioned Oscar nominations for Day-Lewis’ and Manville’s performances and Greenwood’s score, alongside high-profile nods for Best Picture and Best Director (Anderson’s second).

While Best Costume Design was the only one of its nominations to ultimately win a gold statue, PHANTOM THREAD nevertheless continues to accumulate an artistic capital or pedigree far more valuable than any award.

It’s hard to dismiss as mere coincidence that Anderson’s friend and artistic hero Jonathan Demme passed away on the day that PHANTOM THREAD wrapped principal photography (1); Anderson’s own aesthetic evolution had long since superseded Demme’s stylistic influence (once so palpable in early works like BOOGIE NIGHTS), but the latter‘s physical passing in this context feels like a cosmic, posthumous blessing for the former’s artistic development to ascend towards a higher level all his own.

People often invoke Anderson’s name when citing the best living directors, and PHANTOM THREAD serves only to escalate the validity of their claims.  With each successive film, Anderson makes it painfully apparent that his talents are of the kind that only comes around once in a lifetime.  His elegant eccentricity has inspired a generation of emerging filmmakers to follow their own weirdness, ensuring the continued vitality of cinema’s artistic potential.

Anderson’s artistic future remains as unpredictable as the character of his work, but if PHANTOM THREAD is any indication of what might lie in store for his audience, than said future will be utterly unlike anything we’ve seen before.


“HAIM: NIGHT SO LONG (LIVE AT THE GREEK”) MUSIC VIDEO (2018)

Following their series of collaborations throughout 2016 to support the new album “Something To Tell You”, director Paul Thomas Anderson and the buzzy rock band Haim would reunite for yet another music video, released right in the middle of PHANTOM THREAD’s awards season campaign.

The song— “NIGHT SO LONG” — is a spare, gorgeously haunting piece that calls for a matching visual treatment, which Anderson delivers in the form of a live performance during Haim’s sound check and subsequent concert at the famed Greek amphitheater in Los Angeles.  Following in the minimalist tradition of Anderson’s recent music video work, “NIGHT SO LONG” uses its simple construction to better access and capture the transcendent joy or fleeting rapture of musical expression.

Shooting in a low-contrast style with natural light, Anderson — likely operating the camera himself — initially captures the Haim sisters as close-up faces singing into a microphone.  There is little to no context, until a hard cut to a wider shot reveals the girls are performing on a stage by the light of the low-hanging sun. Anderson then shows us the empty amphitheater sprawled out before them, before a hard cut drops the veil of night on top of them and fills the seats with a crowd of fans waving their phones.

 The piece ends where we started, back on a closeup of the band as they finish their sound check, albeit with the audio swapped out for that night’s live performance— leaving us with an invisible crowd of cheering ghosts while the sisters resign themselves to their introspection.

Anderson’s recent string of minimalist music videos differentiate themselves from the pack by embracing subtlety and nuance over flash, or ideological concepts over technical ones.  It’s a testament to his confidence and skill as a filmmaker that he’s able to so quickly and succinctly convey the breadth of his artistic signatures in the space of 5-6 cuts, while still ceding said signatures to the back seat in order to direct our focus onto the band’s own artistry.

 The track is a beautiful, yet unexpected closer to an otherwise infectiously-energetic album, as is Anderson’s visual realization of the emotional truths behind it.

Beyond its immediate pop culture value, videos like “NIGHT SO LONG” stand to remind us of their creators’ continually-evolving relationship to the cinematic medium; that even brilliant and insanely-accomplished directors like Anderson are still finding new avenues of expression within it disproves the idea that the cinema is an outdated art from best relegated to the twentieth century.  Indeed, as long as there’s practitioners like Anderson, the medium still has plenty of life in it yet.


“ANIMA” (2019)

Director Paul Thomas Anderson is quite obviously well-regarded for his contributions to the theatrical feature space.  Case in point: his last three films — THE MASTER (2012), INHERENT VICE (2014) and PHANTOM THREAD (2017) —- were included in a recent (if somewhat premature) ranking by Indiewire of the 100 best films of the decade.  However, there’s another case to be made for his short-form output as perhaps his most radical, experimental, and exhilarating work.\

  His recent string of music videos for Radiohead, Joanna Newsom, and Haim has created an organic creative space for Anderson to refine and reshape his artistic voice with innovative new techniques unfettered by the demands of three-act narrative structure.  Anderson also uses these projects to experiment with alternative distribution strategies, whether it be a surprise online release or an exclusive limited engagement at a repertory theater with serious indie street cred. It seems only natural, then, that Anderson would one day collaborate with Netflix, the current reigning championship of “alternative” distribution.

Shot in May of 2019 — a scant month or two before its release on the streaming platform — Anderson’s semi-futuristic short ANIMA distinguishes itself as one of the most radical, visually-striking works of his career.  Described by Anderson and Radiohead frontman Thom Yorke as a “one-reeler” (a term from the silent-film era), ANIMA unspools across a dystopian cityscape over the course of fifteen fleet-footed minutes, driven by the idiosyncratic rhythms of three music tracks from Yorke’s eponymous solo album.

The title of both the film and the album is derived from Carl Jung’s theories on dreams and the collective unconscious (1), suffusing an otherwise-simplistic narrative with a rich subtext about the inner chaos that animates us as well as the ceaseless difficulty of pushing back against the conformity of modern life.

Anderson mixes the undeniable influence of dystopian parables like 1984 with the absurdist physicality of silent-era stars like Buster Keaton or Charlie Chaplin to arrive at a wholly unique, bemusing tone. In short, the narrative follows Yorke’s character as he tries to return a forgotten briefcase to a mysterious woman (York’s real-life partner Dajana Roncione).  His journey unfolds like a sprawling dream, taking him from the twisting underground labyrinth of the city subway system on through to a cavernous quarry-like space.

The piece culminates in Yorke fighting against gravity itself on an abstractified white plane before he’s able to emerge onto the nocturnal streets of a European city and reunite with the woman on a streetcar just before the sun begins to rise.  The choreography, by SUSPIRIA’s Damien Jalet, reinforces the dreamlike nature of ANIMA’s story, forcing the frames’s subjects to contort themselves into impossible shapes that further abstractify Yorke’s surroundings.

After serving as his own cinematographer through his string of short works as well as PHANTOM THREAD, Anderson invites seasoned DP Darius Khondji to shoot ANIMA using a mixture of film and large-format digital acquisition.  A fine layer of organic grain blends the two formats seamlessly, better allowing for a subtle emphasis on their differences: the clean stability of the Alexa 65 image versus the constrained tension of film (it’s unclear whether ANIMA’s film segments were captured on 35mm or on the larger 65mm gauge to better match the digital resolution).

  Anderson’s first-ever collaboration with Khondji yields stunning results, with Khondji’s decades of expertise melding quite seamlessly with Anderson’s strength of vision and own technical mastery of the craft.  ANIMA was shot almost entirely on location, in various urban and subterranean locales around France and Prague.  Following in the tradition of George Lucas’ THX 1138 or Andrei Tarkovsky’s STALKER, the dystopian atmosphere is implied rather than visibly constructed, achieved through a painstaking curation of appropriate real-world locations, costumes and color.

One of the earliest images shows a subway car full of people in the same dark overcoat, cut in an ultra-modern, future-adjacent silhouette. The sameness of the costumes underlines the dystopic, conformist environment into which Yorke is dropped, all the while complementing the slate-beige neutrality of the subway stations, underground industrial cavern, and above-grade streetscapes.

By leaning heavily into earth tones in his locations and costumes, Anderson is able to leverage pops of bright color to striking effect— take the candy-red support poles in the subway car for instance, or the electric chartreuse of the streetcar’s signage. Even the simple contrast between pure blacks and whites sears the eye, best evidenced in the middle section where Yorke battles society and gravity alike atop an unsteady blank plane.

Anderson and Khondji utilize a combination of handheld camerawork and classical tracking movements to reinforce the probing, dreamlike nature of ANIMA as a whole, while the lenses required by the choice to shoot in large-format mediums creates a shallow depth of field that facilitates Anderson’s continued exploration of portraiture’s compositional conceits.  Ethereal lens flares and impressionistic, looming shadows cast onto stone walls further add to the allegorical, highly-experimental nature of ANIMA’s presentation.

Despite Netflix’s rapid emergence as the entertainment industry’s “establishment” over traditional studio structures, it’s somewhat fitting that Anderson’s most abstract work to date would, following an initial limited IMAX release, make its wide debut on a platform wholly dedicated to shattering theatrical norms.

Like much of his recent short-form work, ANIMA’s audacious technical presentation leaves little room for Anderson’s thematic signatures— Yorke’s quest for connection with the mysterious woman echoes the constant search for a sense of family and belonging so often undertaken by his characters, placing ANIMA most in-line with PUNCH-DRUNK LOVE over any other particular film of his.

That said, ANIMA’s very existence makes one acutely aware of the need for Anderson to tackle a future dystopian setting in his feature work; the world on display here  would make for a compelling backdrop upon which Anderson could further the themes of family, power, and idiosyncratic identity that shape his inimitable voice.  For the time being, however, the virtuoso visuals throughout ANIMA will have to sustain our speculation about what new direction Anderson’s unpredictable artistry will take.


HAIM: “SUMMER GIRL” MUSIC VIDEO (2019)

It appears that director Paul Thomas Anderson and I are engaged in a strange dance: every time I think I’m up to-do-date with my essays on his work, he goes and drops a new piece that takes the film world completely by surprise.  This time, however, I was ready, thanks to a cryptic teaser photo that popped up on Instagram last week featuring Anderson with the Haim sisters in front of the New Beverly Cinema in LA, the celebrated director holding a fresh 35mm reel of film labeled “SUMMER GIRL” set to be threaded up on the projector that evening.  Thankfully, the wait wasn’t long for the rest of us.

Set to the new Haim single of the same name, “SUMMER GIRL” positions itself in perfect creative harmony with Anderson’s previous collaborations with the band.  As other music videos become increasingly more complex and cinematic, Anderson’s contributions to the medium have simplified into brilliantly-executed performance videos centered around a core visual idea.

On a surface level, “SUMMER GIRL” finds the band performing to camera as they waltz through various iconic locales around LA— we see them chowing down at Canter’s Deli on Fairfax, selling tickets at the Quentin Tarantino-owned New Beverly Cinema on Beverly, and strutting down the San Fernando Valley’s Laurel Canyon Boulevard shopping strip.

All the while, they pull off endless layers of coats, sweaters and t-shirts, as if digging down to the state of endless summer that inhabits their very essence (signified by the bathing suits that are ultimately revealed). That LA doesn’t have easily-discernible seasons is an amusing paradoxical fact that surely must not have been lost on Anderson.

The video’s stripped-down technical execution is consistent with Anderson’s other recent music video work, likely with Anderson himself operating the 35mm film camera.  The piece favors shallow focus and natural light, harnessing the golden glow of the late afternoon sun to imbue the Haim sisters with a summery luminescence.

Anderson’s constant use of tracking movements also lend a kinetic, fleet-footed energy, beginning with the documentary-style realism of a handheld camera only to bust out a butter-smooth Steadicam for the climactic vignette.  It’s not a particularly flashy video, but Anderson nevertheless infuses it with the intangible aura of a master filmmaker at work; his confidence with technique and his clarity of vision result in an elevated watching experience that stands out amongst the din of an oversaturated market.

Born from a place of melancholy and uncertainty (front woman Danielle Haim wrote the song for her partner as he was undergoing treatment for cancer), “SUMMER GIRL” asserts itself through the prism of Anderson’s eye as an ode to that indomitable California spirit: eternally youthful and vibrant, confident in its own skin, and poised to lead the way into a golden, sun-soaked future.


Author Cameron Beyl is the creator of The Directors Series and an award-winning filmmaker of narrative features, shorts, and music videos.  His work has screened at numerous film festivals and museums, in addition to being featured on taste making online media platforms like Vice Creators Project, Slate, Popular Mechanics, and Indiewire. 

THE DIRECTORS SERIES is an educational collection of video and text essays by filmmaker Cameron Beyl exploring the works of contemporary and classic film directors. 

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IFH 531: Shooting Red Rocket on 16mm Anamorphic & Guerrilla Filmmaking with Sean Baker

Sean Baker, Red Rocket

You are in for a treat today. We have returning champion writer/director Sean Baker.

Sean Baker is a writer, director, producer and editor who has made seven independent feature films over the course of the past two decades. His most recent film was the award-winning The Florida Project (2017) which premiered at the Cannes Film Festival and was released by A24 in the U.S. Among the many accolades the film received — including an Oscar nomination for Willem Dafoe for Best Supporting Actor — Sean was named Best Director by the New York Film Critics Circle.

His previous film Tangerine (2015) premiered at the Sundance Film Festival and won an Independent Spirit and two Gotham Awards. Starlet (2012) was the winner of the Robert Altman Independent Spirit Award and his previous two features, Take Out (2004) and Prince of Broadway (2008), were both nominated for the John Cassavetes Independent Spirit Award.

His remarkable new film is Red Rocket. The audacious new film from writer- director Sean Baker (The Florida Project, Tangerine), starring Simon Rex in a magnetic, live-wire performance, Red Rocket is a darkly funny, humane portrait of a uniquely American hustler and a hometown that barely tolerates him.

I watched Red Rocket and I have to tell you it’s one of the best films I’ve seen this year.

Sean and I discuss his creative process, how he shot Red Rocket with a 10 person crew and a very limited budget, during COVID. Red Rocket opens today in theaters.

Enjoy my conversation with Sean Baker.

Right-click here to download the MP3

 

Alex Ferrari 0:03
Today we have returning champion, Oscar nominated writer director Sean Baker. Now you might know Sean from his film tangerine, which lit the entire independent film world on fire when it came out a few years ago, because it was shot entirely on an iPhone and got a major release. His next project after that was the Florida project, which got nominated for an Oscar. And his newest film is called Red Rocket starring Simon Rex. And I had the pleasure of watching Red Rocket a few weeks ago. And I gotta tell you, it's easily one of my favorite films of 2021. It is is Sean Baker of a film as you can get. The characters are vivid, it was shot beautifully on 16 millimeter film using anamorphic lenses. So this is why giant scope of a film on a very little budget, we get into the weeds on how we made this film with a 10 person crew during COVID. And all the things that you might think of that, you know, once a once a filmmaker is nominated for an Oscar they don't have to put up with, you know, hunting for locations and maybe stealing some shots and low budgets. Well that's not the case. Sean wants to tell his stories and he tells him the way he wants to say it. And that unfortunately sometimes is lower budgets so he was able to run and gun and make this amazing film. With little time and little money during the middle of a pandemic. It is a remarkable feat to say the least the performances are amazing Simon Rex should get nominated for an Oscar as well as the film and Shawn as well in my opinion, but let's jump in without any further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Sean Baker. I like to welcome back to the show returning champion Sean Baker. How're you doing, Sean?

Sean Baker 4:29
Hey, how are you? It's great to be back.

Alex Ferrari 4:32
I'm good, man. I'm good. Last time you were here. You had that little iPhone film that did okay.

Sean Baker 4:38
Yeah, remember?

Alex Ferrari 4:40
It did all right. Um, but we're here to talk today. We're gonna go a little bit into your process. And we're also going to talk about your amazing new film red rocket, which I had the pleasure of watching a couple weeks ago and I was just of course floored by it. And it's so funny because I literally just moved to Austin. So I was out I was in Texas, and I was just like, wow, this is just another part of Texas. I did not know about

Sean Baker 5:06
Well Texas is so big. I mean, you talk to people in West and West Texas, and they have no idea what's happening over in East Texas. So, I understand, did you watch that AFS?

Alex Ferrari 5:16
No, I watched it at a press screening. There was a press screening. Oh, okay. Okay, I went to a press, I went to a press screening at it. And they're like, do you wanna see Shawn's new movie? I'm like, Yes. And I went in there. And it was it was a it's an experience, we'll talk about it. But for for everybody listening who might not know what you've done, how did you get into the business? What like made what drew you in?

Sean Baker 5:37
Well, I, I've wanted to make films since I was six years old when my mother brought me to the local library. And they were showing clips from the universal monster films. And I fell in love with an image from James Wales, Frankenstein, the burning windmill sequence At the end of the film. And I remember that night, the day before, I wanted to be a construction worker. And the next day, I was like, I want to be a filmmaker. So that's the way that happened. And I went through the cliche, you know, that that shooting Super Eight film until VHS rolled around, I'm showing my age right now.

Alex Ferrari 6:14
You me both brother, you, me both.

Sean Baker 6:17
You know, just just just taking in as much film at the time as I could, being in suburban New Jersey. So being exposed, you know, using the video store, essentially, as my, my education, making, you know, VHS films in high school, doing my yearbook, my video yearbook for my high school, you know, the geeky AV club thing, then I'm then going to NYU going to NYU. You know, I applied to USC, UCLA and NYU I forgot if I got into the other two, but NYU is like the one I really wanted to because to go to because at the time, you know, it was really Spike Lee and John moosh had made such an impact. And I was so I don't know, there was something that was that was telling me, you know, I'm already close to New York, I really want to embrace that New York indie thing that these guys have going on. So went to undergrad there. And during those four years, I got being in New York, you know, this was still pre internet, but I had access to a lot more towards in terms of repertory houses and Kim's video store. Yeah, and being exposed to not only much, you know, the greater world of independent film and discovering passive Eddie's was etc. But also foreign film barn film was made its impact. So going into NYU with like, aspirations of doing, you know, making robot cop or Die Hard down the line, you know, it turned into me wanting to make mystery train down the line, you know, like, by the end of those four years, and yeah, and then shortly after NYU, I pulled together enough money out shortly, I guess it was a few years. But we, we scraped together $50,000 by doing some corporate videos and commercials, enough to shoot my first film, four letter words, and 96 on 35 millimeter, actually, and it's being released this upcoming year finally restored, you know, it's not a very good film. It's a young, young movie. But it got me started, it took four years, you know, I was in my 20s Things were crazy. But, you know, I eventually it premiered at South by Southwest in 2000. And that was sort of my entry into that world. And, and yeah, and then I'll wrap it up really quick by saying that dogma 95 was really, really important at that time, and it made me shift my, I'd already, of course, was in it and wanted to be continue and really, you know, my goal was to become an established filmmaker, but that really changed my focus. And that's what led to us making takeout and I think ever since takeout. There's been sort of like, I've been finding my way in that world of exploring, you know, stories that you know, of communities of, you know, of subcultures that I'm not a part of, you know, that I that I wanted to, to to explore myself through these movies. So, and that has sort of been the through line ever since.

Alex Ferrari 9:26
But I just want to put this out there. I do want to see your Robocop and your diehard. If you want to remake them, I will be I'll be first in line to see your Shawn Baker's Robocop. Very interesting. Starring Simon Rex, obviously.

Sean Baker 9:39
Yeah. Because Verhoeven was like, that's the impact he had on me in high school, but then discovering his other films later and his earlier Dutch, you know, I guess, sex focused movies. You know, they were unfairly called sexploitation back in the day, but like films like you know, Turkish dilla and spiders actually had a major influence on red rocket. So all these years later, it was his other movies that that have had a direct impact.

Alex Ferrari 10:12
Yeah, no question. And and if you anyone looking at Robocop now it's just not just an action movie, there's so much commentary, so much commentary in a film like that.

Sean Baker 10:22
And I have my tickets bought for Benedetta already wrap house this weekend.

Alex Ferrari 10:27
That's awesome. Now I also remember watching the Florida project, which is your last film. And I don't know if I told you this, but I actually, I actually stayed in those hotels. Oh, yeah, not but as growing up as a kid, because I lived in Florida, and we would go to Disney World. And that's that row of hotels that you just you just park and go in and go out. And you wouldn't even realize what you know, I didn't even know that there was a subculture there. I just was a kid. So I was there. So it's amazing how you're able to capture these kinds of subcultures in a way and you shine a light on on subcultures that really don't get light shined on them at all.

Sean Baker 11:08
Well, in that case, it was actually crisper, gosh, who brought that idea to the table because he sent me an article about the children living in the extended stay motels in the shadow of Disney World. And I just found it incredibly compelling. And then also I didn't even know the term hidden homelessness. So it was something I was learning an issue that I was learning while while you know, developing this film and, and so, so just, I just wanted to give you a back ground of like how that came to be,

Alex Ferrari 11:39
Right. Now, how did you how did Red Rocket come to life?

Sean Baker 11:44
That was actually based on research we had done for a film I made before tangerine called starlet, which was also focused on the adult film world. And during a 10 years ago, when we were you know, making that film, we got to meet many people from needle film world and we realized that there was this archetype that existed men, usually male talent, who live off of female talent in and you know, exploited use them in the adult film world. So they don't represent all men in the adult film world. But there is this archetype even have this slang term applied to them suitcase pimp, which we use in the movie. And I have to say that, like, it was something that even being on the set of starlet 10 years ago, thinking, there's a whole other movie for, you know, that can be made based on one of these guys. And so it was about five years later, when we finished up Florida project, that we were entertaining a bunch of ideas. And that's when we said should we tackle this? Alright, let's start fleshing it out. And we fleshed it out. It took a few days, because we already knew these guys, and we had interviewed some of them. So the we had beginning, middle and end. And it was even when I actually thought about Simon for it, because it was during the days of vine, and he had a vine presence. And he was making he was entertaining the hell out of me. So I thought I even remember texting one of my producers saying and if we do make red rock, it's going to be this guy and I I texted them one of Simon's Vine videos, and they laughed and said, okay, cool. It's set. Now, that's unique casting. But then it was all put on the backburner. Because we had moved, we decided to move forward on another idea. And then COVID hit, and COVID shut down that idea because it was something that couldn't be made during a pandemic. And we pivoted back to red rocket, which was sitting on the backburner, and all it required was really just fleshing out because again, we had beginning middle and end broken down, we kind of knew we knew the character and knew the supporting characters. So it was really about finding our setting, and just getting this thing spit out on paper.

Alex Ferrari 13:56
So you so you cast it, Simon via vine, essentially.

Sean Baker 14:02
Yeah. And also, um, Joseph bought Joseph cons bodied. It's a small indie, by music video director, primarily music video director, but he's an indie isn't an indie filmmaker by the name of Joseph Kahn.

Alex Ferrari 14:16
He's a fantastic Yeah,

Sean Baker 14:17
Yeah. Yeah. And Simon had quite a substantial cameo in that movie. And I read I didn't you I forgot about, I forgot about this. There have been people who who alerted me that I did this. But on letterbox back when I watched Bodhi back in the day or a couple years ago, a few years ago, I actually wrote like, Can somebody give Simon Rex a dramatic role already? You know, and so I think that that may have been the one that really was like, you know, that made me that cemented the idea that I want to work with this guy. So um, and yes,

Alex Ferrari 14:54
So when you when so you when you're working when you're casting because you have some of the most impeccable casting Decisions of your generation of filmmakers honestly, like you pick up like there's no, there's no place that Simon Rex is on the list for this for this part, but yet he should get an Oscar nomination. There's no question he should get he's,

Sean Baker 15:17
Thank you. I agree.

Alex Ferrari 15:18
He's brilliant in this. He was like born to play this part. And I don't mean that in a negative way, because of the part of the he's not playing the nicest human being on the planet. Right? Right. What how he's able to bring that character to life. Can you can you give any tips on on your process of casting? Like, how do you make the decision? Because I'm assuming, you know, after your success with tangerine and Florida project, I mean, you probably get pitched constantly like, oh, this actor and this actor, and this is the this disguise or as a bigger box office? or this or that? What how do you?

Sean Baker 15:51
Yeah, I actually have returned emails to agents saying, Sorry, your actor is too famous.

Alex Ferrari 16:01
Which I'm sure they love. I'm sure they love that.

Sean Baker 16:03
But it's only me it's shooting myself in my foot every single time. But um, no, no, I love the fresh faces, I actually take that cue from Spike Lee, you know, Spike Lee, always, even if he put A listers in his films as the leads, he was always surrounding them with fresh faces. I think I saw Samuel Jackson for the first time in Jungle Fever, and being like, Oh, my God, who is this guy, thank you for bringing him into the talent pool. I mean, he's incredible. So that's what I look to do every time and also, I just, um, you know, I read, you know, regarding, you know, my, my first timers, I've just, you know, keep my eyes open, you know, I just keep my eyes open i st cast even when I'm not in current development, you know, Susanna son came about because we saw her at the Arclight Hollywood in the lobby, and she was coming in those glass doors while we were over near the ticket booth. And we looked over and saw her and just thought she had that, that that quality that can't be defined, it's that it quality, it's an aura, that energy that says I'm a star, and you want it you can see watching that person on the big screen for two hours, you know, and wanting to see that person on the big screen for two hours. So you know, you exchange information, you keep that person on file, and then you hope that everything comes together, they have the enthusiasm to do it, and they have the talent to do it. And I've been very lucky, where I've surrounded myself with these first timers who all have that.

Alex Ferrari 17:35
How do you I have to ask you, because the performances that you pull out of, of your actors, or the collaboration that you have with these actors, how do you approach directing actors? Because I mean, their performances from tangerine up until you know, just just your last year tired filmography but the last three films specifically, some of the performances you've pulled out, they get not they get nominated. Not that means anything but they're really good. How do you approach the acting, directing actors?

Sean Baker 18:04
Thank you. I mean, every every individual is different, even if they are experienced, you know, very, like well, like well, but will are like I consider my three leads actually experienced actors in Red Rocket because I didn't mention that. You know, even though I met Susanna son on the street casting I discovered after the fact that she already had an Instagram presence and the reason that she was in Hollywood is because she had just moved there as an aspiring actor. So you know, I consider her and Brielle rod who plays Lexie in the film, she's had a, you know, two decades of theater experience, and she was in a small role on Shutter Island. And then Simon You know, who's been in this world for quite a while, they're the experience actors, they're the ones who come with like, years of experience are not yours, but you know, they come with that. And then you have first timers who have all different levels of, you know, experience aspirations, you know, comfort levels. So each one is different, everybody's different and it's really just about becoming friends, being very casual, being transparent, making them feel comfortable becoming a family unit in which nobody is embarrassed about anything I do I do actually encourage improvisation in my films all the time. I love it. You know we have pretty much you know, we do have a fleshed out script and especially with Red Rocket because red rocket was shot in such a fast it was COVID and small, you know, small budget so we had very limited amount of time. So out of all my films, probably Red Rocket is the most scripted. With all those Mikey Sabre rants and everything, those are all but I still allow I want my my cast to improvise, and you never want them to feel put on the spot. You know what I mean? I can't you want them and never feel embarrassed about trying things and experimenting And so, you know, I have my incredible actors who are so incredibly brave and bold, they'll go in front of a camera and they'll try something. And if it doesn't work, who cares? It doesn't work. Let's go for an outtake and try something else. And, and, and getting everybody in that place where everybody's comfortable and feel safe. And red rocket was perfect for that, because it was like a small 10 person crew. Tiny we were a pod, we were very isolated. And it just allowed for that it was a good environment. And then, uh, one more thing I want to add, you know, since Florida project, I've been working with a coach, my wife and producer Samantha Quan. And she worked with the two children, or the three children on Florida project, but it was during our project that I told her, I have these, you know, the two moms I, I decided that I'm going to cast them with it's essentially first timers. So can you help me out the moms, and because Samantha's female, there's that that really helps as well, you know, they, they might feel more comfortable at first with another woman. And she's also very maternal. So there's, you know, it's it that that really showed me during Florida project that, Sam, Samantha brings a lot to the table there. And so with red rocket, I was able to give some of the first timers to Samantha and say, why don't you guys workshop? Why don't you guys try these scenes out? I'm focusing on this, tell me when you're ready to, for me to watch it, I would come in watch where they were going, give them tweaks, give them notes. And it was really a great day. So So Samantha has been very much a part of that new process?

Alex Ferrari 21:40
And is, are there any other tips that you can give about directing non actors? Because you've had a few of those are films over the years of neither new actors specifically, but but more like non actors of the people who just don't act?

Sean Baker 21:56
And yeah, it's always saying, Hey, if you don't feel comfortable, if the scripted dialogue is not rolling off their tongue, you, I'm told I'm never precious with any of the stuff we write, except if it's unless it's a really good line I'm proud of, or it's exposition. Sure, I'm okay with saying, put this in your own words, or how would you say it, especially if they're from that area, or part of the culture that we're focusing on? It really is invaluable? Because they'll bring stuff that you never would have they elevate your script, they make it more realistic, they they bring in slang that you didn't know about, there was plenty of that in Red Rocket, plenty of it. Like Britney Rodriguez, just just asking her in a moment saying this scene isn't there's something about this line that's playing a little bit like an East Coast, New Yorker wrote this line, can you help me out? And she would think about it for a little while, and then come up back with some ideas. And so there was that collaboration out? Should I give you an example from Russia? Be No way. Okay, cool. So when we Andrea, who is who plays her mother in the film, I'm talking about Brittany Rodriguez plays June, her mother is leandria played by Judy Hill, Judy Hill is talking to Simon and realizing that he has dropped his Texas accent. And in the script, it was just like, you know, where's your accent? Or where's your remember, go a very bland, boring line. And so in the moment, we just, I said, you know, I don't like this, it doesn't, it's not exciting, let's just bring some local color to it, Brittany anything. And Brittany was like, he sounds brand new. And I was like, perfect. Alright, leandria that's what you gotta say you so you sound brand new and stuff like that stuff like it those little, you know, that just that little, those little details, you know, add so much and, and that's what you get out of sometimes working with these, you know, the first timers who have a parallel life experience and can actually bring that to the table.

Alex Ferrari 24:03
Right! And and I love that you and you could tell in your films that you are not precious about the dialogue, because it just seems so natural rolls off the tongue so much. And you can just you know, as a director, you look at things you're like, okay, that either that was an amazing performance, or they're just kind of rolling with it in our in the moment. And you can tell that, especially in Red Rock, there was a lot of that going on in the background. But with with the input, a lot of the improvisation that's going on on set. What is your writing process? Like? How do you start writing a movie like Red Rocket?

Sean Baker 24:37
Well, each one's different. Each one is different, like this one was, I didn't even see Chris. I mean, Chris and I were basically zooming. Right and then we had a shared Google Doc. So it was one of those things and because we had broken it down years ago, and I already knew beginning middle and end is more about just like taking on these these major rants and Taking on the dialogue. And so, you know, we just write it out and share it with one another and give each other's notes. And, and yeah, so So in this case, it was very remote writing and a lot of writing in Galveston, Texas actually in my Airbnb, you know, weeks before we were actually shooting and but everyone's every every every approaches everyone's different Oh, the one thing I do want to the one consistency of all the my writing experiences is that we always have the end worked out in our heads before we even open up Final Draft ending is a very endings are very important for me. They really you know, at my favorite films have very impactful endings that keep you thinking as you're exiting the theater and interpreting and, and right sometimes writing your own ends. And I appreciate those movies. And so I always keep that in mind. I mean, I won't, I won't open up Final Draft until we have beginning middle and end worked out.

Alex Ferrari 26:04
Now, I always love asking creatives this what what do you do to tap into the zone that creative? Well, that we all have in? You know, we all have I always say we have our personal creative wells that we can tap into. And sometimes you're in the zone. And sometimes you're not in the zone. What is there something that you do in your writing process that you get into your mind for in a mind frame where you can then accept a muse, if you will, the Muse shows up and starts helping you.

Sean Baker 26:32
I wish I could say there there, there is something it usually it's usually a producer holding a gun to my head. Better get done now. So it's actually there's a lot of procrastination, a lot of napping, but I think moments of inspiration come where you're not least expecting it sometimes when you're in a movie theater watching somebody else's film where you're just like, now I got I got that figured out. Okay, I can't wait, you know, so. It's really just, um, you know, I'm sorry, yeah, I can't tell you one specific thing. It's more about like just allowing it to come and giving time and also cutting yourself deadlines, we have to get as human beings, we have to, or at least for me, I have to have deadlines. So in order in order in that crunch time seems to speed things up, you know, seems to speed up the creative juices that they get down during the crunch time. So it's really just about discipline, quite honestly, it's about discipline. And yeah

Alex Ferrari 27:28
Showing showing up in the Muse will show up with you.

Sean Baker 27:29
Yeah, yeah, essentially.

Alex Ferrari 27:33
Now, I you know, as directors, you know, there's always that one day on set, that the entire world is coming crashing down around you. You're losing the sun, the camera broke. There's an elephant running through your shot, something. What was that day on Red Rock? And how did you overcome it?

Sean Baker 27:50
Well, I realized I couldn't overcome it. So it was an acceptance during pre production, okay, right, I was going to have to accept all these freakin limitations. And I broke a chair, I never do that I'm not a violent guy. I don't get physical. But one day, that my, my, my, essentially, this whole scene that I had written would be impossible to do based on our budget. I can't tell you what it is. But it was a big set piece that required stunts and everything. And I'm just like, I realized at that point that I have no choice. I'm I locked myself into this budget of a type this type of movie. I'm these COVID. And everything else is, is imposing these limitations. And I lifted up a plastic chair and I broke it on the front porch. That was it. That was like the cathartic like, okay, I get that. Because from that point on it, we had disasters every three hours where we would like lose something or this and that, but it was it was chill, it was like, we're not gonna freak out. Because we realize we do not have the money. And we do not have the time to throw at problems. So instead of tackling those problems, we'll pivot and go another direction, and then all the serendipity and all these happy accidents started coming our way. So every day even though there was like a problem, every three hours, there was also a miracle every three hours. So I was every day I was getting these miracles where I was like, Oh my God, that happened today. Like that happens. The whole thing with the train. And the proposal that big scene was of course, it was timed. We knew it was coming, but we only had one chance to do it because the train came in once a day. We had 20 minutes prep, and like things just worked out. So wonderfully in that moment, like the conductor was blowing his horn at the perfect moment that it would complement the dialogue and the scene. So a lot of the gifts from the film gods came our way as soon as I was open to them.

Alex Ferrari 29:57
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. You know, we're used to, were you essentially running and gunning, like an EMG crew almost sometimes. I mean, there was obviously a plan for your day. But you pivot, you're like, Okay, we're gonna go do this. Now let's go and you kind of come up with it on the fly almost

Sean Baker 30:20
Yes, there was a lot an incredible amount of running and cutting it felt like a gorilla film making from well, I guess you could say it was like, very much like tangerine. We were just on the street. And we're like, oh, this dialogue scene. We're not feeling this right now. So let's just do this instead. Or like, you know, let's just, let's just follow Mikey on the bike for three hours, see what happens, you know, um, you know, there was a lot of that a lot of stealing scenes, you know, meaning that we didn't always have permits.

Alex Ferrari 30:49
I was gonna ask, I was gonna ask you that. It seems like when you're watching the movie, and you basically have the run of the town, but I'm assuming like, they had to, like, just kind of grab some stuff here and there that did they technically a lot of it

Sean Baker 31:03
A lot. And you know, it's as long as you do it safely. There's no problem with that, you know, of course, against the law. So, you know, we were, we were always doing it safely. And we were, and I think we just embrace that spontaneity. We were saying there's, there's improv in front of the camera. So Why can't every improv behind the camera. And that's great. I love that line. I love and also drew Daniels and his team are just, you know, they're just they're geniuses. I end up back that they pulled that off a four person camera crew pulled off those images. Yeah, Drew Daniels, you had a first AC, a second AC and a gaffer grip, meaning one person doing both gaffing and gripping Chris Hill who worked on Zola recently as well. He's amazing. So those four guys, and then you have the sound? Yeah, when you had our sound one a one man. Sound team. Alex.

Alex Ferrari 31:58
He did the mix mixing and booming at the same time.

Sean Baker 32:01
Yep. Yep. And then you had my sister who is Stefanik. And she is the production designer on the film. And then every other role, which is only four right? Because those are six people. And then you have four others making a crew of 10 the other four members were just producers wearing many, many hats, and they were all wearing them so well. I mean, like, you know, I'll give you an example. She Cheng's. Oh, who is actually in the film? She plays Miss fan at Arizona. Hello, what? She's wonderful. Yeah, well, she's also doing continuity while acting. And she's also doing costume design. And she was also responsible for, you know, a little bit of transportation here and there. So you know, you can see like, how much everybody is given their all

Alex Ferrari 32:47
It was an indie movie. It was it was it truly wasn't a new movie. And what I love about your career is I've been following it is that you know, after success of tangerine, and then of course, after Florida project, you can easily go down, the bigger budget roads, I'm sure they've been offered, those kinds of films might have been offered to you. But you get you really still want to stay in the world that you have 100% control over and explore stories that might not be, you know, doesn't have a superhero in it.

Sean Baker 33:15
Yeah. Yeah. You know, I just I know, I know, it's tempting. You know, I know, it's definitely tempting. Sure, I'm sure there's a monetary purposes. You know,

Alex Ferrari 33:27
The, the checks must be insane.

Sean Baker 33:29
Yeah, that's the big thing that I'm, I'm always conflicted about, like, should I make my life easier and make a film for a studio or more, you know, go to a series, but I've been starting to work in commercials, which have been really helped. That's like, my side hustle, which is like, my main bread and butter. And even if you get one spot a year, it's gonna pay you a lot better than working in indie film. But then on top of that, but it's more than that. I just, it's about like you if, you know if you if you if you? Yeah, I'm the type of I'm so neurotic. And it's like, I just want to I just want to sleep at night, you know? And not beat myself up by you know, I feel like I you know, I want to tell personal stories, I want to tell I want to films take a long time they take over two years, you know, you put all of your energy all of your heart into them. So why not tell it make the movie you want to make? And so I look at the I look at the, you know, the filmmakers that I admire, who had personal visions, and each film is different and each film is unexpected and, and yet they stayed true to their vision. The germ whooshes you know PGAS Spike Lee's you know, they these these these are the people who molded my career and and so I just no follow I follow their path.

Alex Ferrari 34:52
Fair, fair enough. Now, do you do you rehearse with your actors?

Sean Baker 34:57
Yeah, yeah, we do. We do. sometime not too much. I don't I don't like to over rehearse. I think that that's dangerous. Sometimes with first timers, you want to over rehearse it all comes down to the all comes down to the individual. And yeah, and as I mentioned earlier with Samantha Kwan, she's been wonderful now because sometimes it's not really for me, but it's more for the actors just to make them feel comfortable, you know, so just doing workshops and doing repetition of the scenes is I don't even have to see them all the time. As long as they're just they're doing them. Yeah, but the rehearsals for me, it's usually just, it's just about, I've already been, I'm already confident my actors can pull it off. They're already 95% there. So it's, my rehearsals are about just tweaking and maneuvering and guiding. So yeah, I do

Alex Ferrari 35:50
Now, I have to ask when you pitch this project assignment, and you sent him the script and the role like cuz this is a this is a challenging role. And it's a very exposing role. And in many ways, did he kind of was he hesitant or he's like, Oh, I'm so it.

Sean Baker 36:10
Who's pretty much all in? I mean, you know, he, he did. I honestly don't remember many of our early conversations, except for the fact that we just like he was on board, he was excited. And we we discussed the character discussed sort of the character traits that I saw in the Mikey Sabres that I had met and said to him, you know, this is like, you know, you're going to be playing a manchild here. You're gonna, you know, and all of those characteristics that come with the suitcase pimp and, and he had watched some of the interviews I had done of some gentleman from that world, so he but he didn't watch too much. He was like, I don't want to do a carrot. I don't want to do an impersonation. But I got the vibe, I got the Energy Plus he said, I you know, I've been in Hollywood for like the last three decades, I can pull from a lot of that I can pull from the narcissistic sociopathic jerks from the industry, and really use that. So I think he used that quite honestly. And again, yeah,

Alex Ferrari 37:16
You mean to tell me there's egos in Hollywood and, you know, stop it. Now, do you? Do you ever storyboard Do you shot list? Or do you just kind of flow with it on the day?

Sean Baker 37:27
I don't storyboard simply because I can't draw. And I haven't had the budget to hire sorry. But I've storyboard it on spots, commercial spots, and I really like I like it. But I also just, like, just just, you know, I, I'm my own editor, I edit all of my film. So I always have my editing hat on all the time. So when I'm, I'm shortlisting, I'm, you know, I do shortlist, especially on a film like Red Rocket in which we've had to, we had to run and gun so that, you know, sometimes it's a week before, sometimes it's a night before, you know, where I'm sitting down with my producer. And we're figuring out all the coverage of the scene. And sometimes with my DP as well, like how we're going to cover this and, and so it's it, even though there as I mentioned earlier, there is improv behind the camera. There also is a control behind the camera and we know how we're going to, you know, expect especially if it's a controlled scene, and there's a set piece Yeah, we will have it worked out. And then there are other scenes, like say, the sabotage moment at the end of the movie, in which you have to profess to seasoned actors in there and the rest all non professionals are first timers. Sorry. First timers, I don't like using the word non professional.

Alex Ferrari 38:41
Because they were professional first timers.

Sean Baker 38:45
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Um, we were in a tiny room together, and there's a lot of chaos. And in that moment, I was like, you know, it's best just to do what they call hosing down. So Drew, you're gonna hose down every we're gonna do multiple takes, where you're just all over the place, and I'm not going to tell you where to go. You just go where you want to go. Or sometimes I'll, I'll guide you but you know, it's more about just being as spontaneous with the handheld camera as the actors are being in the moment. And so that there's that but then there's also the very controlled, you know, I think you can see with red rocket, we were pulling a lot from the controlled cinema of Spielberg with you know, Sugarland Express and Bill moose, Sigmund. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So we have dollies, we have very controlled camera moves, very controlled framing. And so it's really about it's, it's, yeah, it's about mixing it up and finding a way.

Alex Ferrari 39:38
Yeah, it was it wasn't it wasn't like you just it was all handheld the entire time there was very, it had a very Sugarland Express vibe to it. That was a grid with think about because it did have that kind of control vibe, but yet it still had that kind of on the moment. EMG documentary five almost sometimes as well. And you just said if I'm not mistaken, you shot this on film right?

Sean Baker 40:00
Yes, we did. Primarily, I mean, there was some night scenes that had to be shot digitally because of low light. And then we had to do a tremendous amount of treatment in post for it to match the 16. Which I think you know, my incredible colorist Arnold at photochem did wonderfully. But yeah, super 16 I'm sorry. 16 anamorphic. So we were using anamorphic lenses for 16 that haven't is very rare in VR making. Yeah. I think the lenses we actually used from what I know and I might be, I might I don't know if I'm I still I haven't gotten confirmation on this. But I think we are the only feature to have used these phantom vision 16 And a Morphix. They've been used primarily on commercials and music videos and fashion films. But but we were able to capture a look with this that I think is very different from the average 16 millimeter look, it's a real throwback, it has this the proper scope of like a, you know, a Hollywood film in some ways, yet, it's still very gritty. The way it captured that landscape, you know, we needed that 235 aspect ratio to do that. And Drew Daniels is so fast on 16 that he would have a setup ready to go before I knew it. And usually he was waiting on me you know, on it's usually on a set it's like how long is camera going to take or? Sound? Yeah, yeah, Andrew would just look at me he's like, I'm waiting on you. I'm waiting on you did.

Alex Ferrari 41:34
Now, there's another part of this movie that you have forever changed the meaning of instincts. Bye bye bye. For me forever and ever and ever. Because it's a no win. Win Win win because I think it's in the trailer too. Right? They use that

Sean Baker 41:53
Yeah, yeah,

Alex Ferrari 41:54
It's they use it so when I saw it in the trailer, I'm like, Okay, this is gonna be a lot of fun. But then as you use it and the way you use it in the movie, is it's the only song to use right?

Sean Baker 42:05
And yeah, well you know we have so we have music coming out of radios and that big puddle of mud song which actually costs a lot for the strip joint but besides that yeah, no Nsync's bye bye bye

Alex Ferrari 42:19
Is the score is the score Yeah, so there was no there was is there any reason why you didn't want to fill it in with some score or other music?

Sean Baker 42:26
You know what I haven't used the score ever actually and I even though I love soundtracks I some my favorite films have incredible lush wall to wall soundtracks. My subject matter I'm usually you know, I It's hard to go with with the overly scored thing is something I you know, I try to avoid this because it's, it's what will age the fastest with your films, I think scores age the quickest. And then on top of that, is that manipulation, it's a very blatant manipulation that it comes with scoring. And these days, we're, I think films are kind of overly scored. And I don't mean to slam any movies, but I mean, like, the constant strings, I get, we get it.

Alex Ferrari 43:10
I know, I need to be sad here. I need to be excited here. I get it

Sean Baker 43:14
Yeah, this is how you should feel. And I that's the last thing I want to do. I want to you know, present, you know, a very objectively my stories and characters and without judgment. So So I want I want the audience to, you know, to I want to allow the audience to feel what they are feeling without manipulating so. So, you know, the closest I ever came to a score was I think in starlet where I kind of had a repetition of, of one track by an artist by the name of manual. And, and that was like a consistent repetition to the point and it was ambient, it was an ambient track. So it became sort of a score, but I've been avoiding that with my work and I don't know whether that'll change soon.

Alex Ferrari 43:58
Okay, sure. Yeah. Now and when you were editing cuz I've been an editor for 25 years, so I know that I know how the process of cutting it goes. What is your process as far as like, you know, do you just do a rough cut? Or like you just like assemble it all? Are you What did you cut on by the way did you cut on what did you

Sean Baker 44:16
We put on Adobe Premiere

Alex Ferrari 44:19
Oh okay, so yeah, so you know, do you jump in and out of color you know to see if things work out what is your process

Sean Baker 44:24
Well are are wonderful colors so I mentioned earlier our our Arnold, he gave us a lot that kind of worked universally. Okay, good, but so I didn't have to worry much with color. But then, um, I am kind of, I'm kind of crazy. I go right to a fine cut. That's my that's my Yeah, I know. It's weird. I don't do an assemble. I don't do a rough. I don't even I don't even move on to the next scene until the scene that I'm tackling is polished and I'm talking polished. I mean, tight. Yeah, yeah, no, I'm even doing sound design on that on that scene before. Moving to the next scene. So tell you the truth. I don't know whether the movie works as a whole until the last day of the edit. Until I've like locked the fine picture, the fine cut. And so, um, yeah, it's kind of nerve wracking for my producers especially and for me, I'm just like, well, I lose my mind. I'm, every post production is been a little difficult. I've been getting better, but I go into that whole like living, you know, nocturnally I become a vampire. I, you know, it's it's it's a few months of insanity. But, um, but yeah, it's something that I find necessary because it's like my I put my signature on it. I find my film ultimately in post production. And it's like, it's like 50% of my directing in a way so. And you know what, these days I have to say, with Florida project, I've learned a lot about what I can do in post like we're living in a day and age where you used to say Never say you can fix it in post because you can't now you can. Now there's a lot you actually can do there is and I'm doing a lot of cleanup. I'm doing a lot of split screens and visible split screens. I'm doing mats that you would never see but stuff that is really allowed me as a director to even be directing further and post and manipulating even for timing of performance sometimes and so that's that's been really like this new it's brought it's made editing fresh for me again.

Alex Ferrari 46:29
Yeah, it's kind of like what Fincher Fincher LA. He's just days and weeks and months. Yeah, exactly. That's like doing split screens, changing performances, adding one performance from here and another performance from there and mixing different takes and like really, you're directing you're still directing at that point.

Sean Baker 46:44
Exactly. I watched the manque. DGA q&a he did and he said that almost every frame of that film was manipulated to some degree in post and, and that's incredible. You know, I and my, I was doing so much of that with red rocket, you know, cleaning up little things in here and there. Like for example, with red with donut hole, which is almost supposed to be this. It's supposed to be otherworldly. It's supposed to be almost it could be seen as as Mikey's fantasy, you know, just doesn't, it's not totally based in the real world, I'd be cleaning up stuff that just, you know, just made that, that that space, less congested and prettier. So I would take away you know, electric cords, I would take away a sign I didn't like, you know, and so this is that's possible these days. And it's really I don't know it's inspiring for me because it's like a new way of filmmaking and,

Alex Ferrari 47:38
And, and I see a sense of theme with the donut shops in your tangerine, which is no longer a donut shop.

Sean Baker 47:48
I think it still is it did change

Alex Ferrari 47:51
And they change it because last time I drove by it was closed and then

Sean Baker 47:54
When did you buy it like a year ago? Oh, no, no, no, open its tray. Whoa,

Alex Ferrari 48:01
Oh, Trados donuts? That's right. That's right. Yeah, yeah, that Danny did something there.

Sean Baker 48:06
Yeah. So um, you know, I am going to disappoint you now because I wish I could tell you that the that doughnut hole was written in the script, but it was actually something found during pre production and worked into the movie, we had written it for a food truck outside of the refineries that strawberry would be working at. But when Alex cocoa one of my great producers, and I were driving past donut hole and groves, Texas, which is right next to Port Arthur, we saw this, we saw this incredible donut shop called donut hole with like, right next to the refineries with the perfect colors and this great parking lot. And, and, and this, this little wink that it does to one of my previous films, and maybe even the sexual connotations that come from, you know, the doughnut hole. Exactly. Everything seemed to work so wonderfully that we were like, This is a gift from the film gods and we better accept it.

Alex Ferrari 49:07
That's awesome. Now I'm gonna ask you a few questions ask all my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Sean Baker 49:13
Yeah, it's a very, you know, I It's it the the industry is changing all the time, and right in front of our eyes. So it's so hard to the advice that I would have given maybe even five years ago has changed it. It really you have to decide on what you want to do. Number one, do you want to make feature films? Do you want to make a series Do you want to you know, there are different ways there. There's so many different avenues these days, web series, etc, etc. But I think what's important is just to get started is just to get going in some way or another work in some aspect of the industry. I mean, for a long time. I was doing everything I could do work doing corporate videos, editing wedding videos, just so that I could actually have practice. And at the time, yeah, you're beating yourself up saying, Oh, wow, this is I feel like I'm so isolated outside the industry, but But you are practicing your craft. And that's very important to keep practicing your craft. And then also, don't wait. That's another thing, that's the biggest thing for me, if you're gonna make a feature, don't wait, you know, meaning the tools are there. Now to do it, you can pick up your iPhone, you can shoot a film, you can edit it around at home on premiere, and you can present it to the world and see whether the world accepts it. Yeah, you may want a $50 million budget, but let's be realistic, that's not going to come right away, you're gonna have to build to that. And I and I always remember my a friend of mine, from way back in the 90s said, I don't want to make my first feature until you know, I have the $20 million to do it. Right. And unfortunately, that guy still hasn't made a film. And that's that that always is like, you know, I had to make these scrappy little movies. You know, my first film tiny little thing I shot my second film takeout that I co director was shooting. So we made that for $3,000 on a mini on mini DV. And, you know, that's being you know, that that's now? Well, it's being restored and put out into the world next year again, and so, you know, so yeah, yeah, it can be done. Just do it and do it. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 51:32
Just Just go basically just just be Nike, just go do it. That now um, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Sean Baker 51:43
Oh, gosh, I think one thing that I'm still learning is just that Carpe Diem, or, you know, just live in the moment, to appreciate the moment to be full of gratitude, you know, as human beings where we sometimes, you know, fall into the pity party thing we sometimes like, compare ourselves to other we always compare ourselves to others we have MB. But you know, you know, I, I'm, I feel that, you know, it's taken me a while, but I just want to like live in the moment and appreciate it and be happy about you know, where you are, I think that that's an important thing. And it's something I'm yeah, I hope I answered that.

Alex Ferrari 52:22
Perfectly fine. That was great. And three of your favorite films of all time.

Sean Baker 52:27
Oh, you know, it changes all the time. Sure. My top three but uh, but I I always look at Lars von Trier as the idiots which was like, I think dogma number two, as something that just is inspired me so much and continues to inspire me. So the idiots Harold and Maude, I think you can see Harold and Maude over Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And then just how Ashby in general in my films. And then, um, Chang Dong Lee's Oasis is such an incredible film that's underrated because a lot of people know Chang Dong Lee's films he made after Oasis, but I think people should go back and, and watch oasis. It's such a bold film that would never be made in this country at this time. And yet, I think is a necessary film and a film that really is profound. So So Chengdong Lee's oasis.

Alex Ferrari 53:22
And where can people see your film? And when is it coming up?

Sean Baker 53:25
Well, thank you for asking. A24. Is is is starting a limited run on the 10th of December so it'll open up in New York and Los Angeles on the 10th in a few select theaters, and then the next weekend, start to roll out into other cities. So you know, I would just say check a 20 fours website and Check local listings but it just let you know though, it's a it's a it's a an exclusive theatrical run, which I'm so happy about and so thankful to a 24 for allowing this in a day when you know there's a lot of day end dates and a lot of you know a lot of streaming titles that are just going directly to home video. This is what we shot this for the big screen is as you can tell we really wanted this to we I know it looks great on the big screen because I got to see it at the new Beverly last night on 35 millimeter and and so I hope people you know if they feel comfortable and you know if they feel safe to go to the theater see it on the big screen and it I think you know and yeah, that's all guy but I truly I truly hope people are able to see this on that big screen.

Alex Ferrari 54:43
And I second that because I did see it on the big screen and it is it is like for 16 millimeter film is part one of the more epic epically shot 16 millimeter film even super 16 but 16 millimeter films I've ever seen, especially projected is gore. It's absolutely stunning and gorgeous to look at. And you really do feel like you're there. So, Shawn, I truly appreciate you being on the show. I wish you nothing but continued success. I'm sure the film's gonna do very well. I hope Simon gets that Oscar nod. Because God, wouldn't that be amazing if he did.

Unknown Speaker 55:17
But we're even in the discussion is like, when the very fact that we even made this film is a win for us. I remember when we were going to can it was like we already won just by being here. So we're in a very good place, and however it plays out. It's this gravy at this point.

Alex Ferrari 55:33
Yeah, congrats, my friend. You're welcome back at any time for any of your feature films. So I do appreciate you. And thank you for all the inspiration that you've given filmmakers around the world because I hear constantly Well, you know, Shaun Baker did tangerine. And I mean, you could just grab an iPhone, I hear that every day. And it's and it's so there's a lot of inspiration you put out there. So even though while you're doing your work, you are inspiring another generation of filmmakers out there. So thank you again for all you do my friend.

Sean Baker 55:59
That's nice to hear. Thank you very much.

Alex Ferrari 56:02
I want to thank Sean so much for coming on the show and dropping his knowledge bombs on the tribe today. Thank you so much, Sean, not for just coming on the show. But for the continued inspiration you give the entire independent film community. Thank you again, sir. If you want to check out his new film Red Rocket it is opening in theaters today, December 10. Exclusively my answer will not be available anywhere online until after the new year. So I implore you guys if you want to check out an amazing independent film, and now you know the backstory of how it was made, check out red rocket. If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, including links to tickets to go see red rocket head over to the show notes at indiefilmhustle.com/531. And if you haven't already, please head over to filmmaking.podcast.com SUBSCRIBE and leave a good review for the show. It really helps us out a lot. Thank you again so much for listening, guys. As always, keep that hustle going. keep that dream alive. Stay safe out there. And I'll talk to you soon.

 

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IFH 530: How to Direct Your 1st Netflix Feature with Nora Fingscheidt

The Unforgivable, Nora Fingscheidt, Sandra Bullock

Today on the show we have writer/director Nora Fingscheidt.

Nora Fingscheidt was born in 1983 in Germany and spent her youth partly in Argentina. From 2003 onward she participated in the development of the self-organized film school filmArche in Berlin. At the same time, she completed her training as an acting coach under Sigrid Andersson. Nora studied fiction directing at the Film Academy Baden-Württemberg.

Her graduation film, the full-length documentary WITHOUT THIS WORLD about a conservative Mennonite colony in Argentina, won the Max Ophüls Prize and First Steps Award in 2017.

Her narrative film debut, SYSTEM CRASHER, premiered at Berlinale 2019, where it won a Silver Bear (Alfred Bauer Award), won eight German Film Awards and many international awards. SYSTEM CRASHER was Germany’s entry for the Oscars in 2020. She continues to work both in documentary and narrative, as well as with full-length films and shorts.

Nora directed her new film THE UNFORGIVABLE starring Sandra Bullock which will premiere on Netflix December 2021.

Released from prison after serving a sentence for a violent crime, Ruth Slater (Academy Award-winner Sandra Bullock) re-enters a society that refuses to forgive her past. Although she feels a pull to the place she once called home, only harsh judgment awaits her there.

Ruth’s only hope for redemption is in finding her estranged younger sister Katie (Aisling Franciosi), who she was forced to leave behind. In her quest to reunite with Katie and adjust to life on the outside, Ruth encounters obstacles she expects and those she never saw coming from those whose lives are disrupted by her release.

Bullock produces along with Academy Award winner Graham King (Bohemian Rhapsody, Traffic) and stars alongside Vincent D’Onofrio, Jon Bernthal, Richard Thomas, Linda Emond, Aisling Franciosi, Rob Morgan, Emma Nelson, Will Pullen, Thomas Guiry and Viola Davis.

Enjoy my conversation with Nora Fingscheidt. 

Right-click here to download the MP3

Alex Ferrari 0:00
I'd like to welcome the show, Nora Fingscheidt. How you doing, Nora?

Nora Fingscheidt 0:15
Hi, doing very well, how are you?

Alex Ferrari 0:17
I'm good. Thank you so much for coming on the show, I had the pleasure of watching your new film, your new Netflix film, The unforgiveable, with Santa with Miss Sandra Bullock and an amazing cast, which we're going to get into all of that in a minute. But before we go down there, let's I want to take it back for a little a few years behind. And how did you get started in the business? What made you want to tell stories and be in this ridiculous business that we call the film industry?

Nora Fingscheidt 0:46
Which it is for sure. It started quite a while ago, I mean, when I was a teenager, or even earlier, you know, when I watched movies, there was a point where I understood that Oh, actually, there are people behind that make choices. You know, like I watched Titanic is dead dying. And I was like, Why the hell did they let him die? It was I don't know. 11. So I thought like, if I could become a filmmaker, I could remake that film and, and he would survive, you know, like that it was when it started. Now, of course, I understand the whole movie wouldn't work if he survived.

Alex Ferrari 1:24
I've been trying to tell that to my daughter, by the way, and she doesn't buy it. She's like, No, no, there was you could put a life you shouldn't I got a lifeboat. There was more than enough room for both of them. I don't understand it. As it she always goes when Mr. Jim Cameron comes on your show, I would like to talk to him. She's She's 10. She's 10.

Nora Fingscheidt 1:42
I was at exactly the same place. And ever since you know, that kind of dream grew of becoming a filmmaker, but I do not come from an artistic background. So nobody, my family does anything related to art. So the idea of becoming filmmaker was something pretty crazy. It's like, yeah, I wouldn't be an astronaut. Sure. So I first studied other things to make my parents happy, like, you know, call it Latin American Studies law. But in the meantime, I was always like, in secret, making short films and being in kind of an underground film school and working my way slowly up to longer forums. And yeah, that's how it started.

Alex Ferrari 2:27
Wow. Yeah, isn't it it's, I call it the sickness, the beautiful sickness, that is to be a filmmaker, you just can't get it out. Once you get bit by the bug. It can't leave you. It can't just it grows. It just grows. Sometimes it goes dormant for years, but then it always pops its head up. Always, always want to set up. Now, how did you get your your film system crasher? off the ground? That was a first year it was that your first feature?

Nora Fingscheidt 2:53
That was my first fiction feature? Okay. It was? Well, it took a while it took six years to make that film, which, you know, it was kind of challenging to write the script, and then of course, to get a finance because who wants to see a movie about a terrible child? No, it's not an easy pitch. So I Oh, yeah, they're like, child psychiatry awards involved. And people are like, nobody's gonna want to watch that. So yeah, took a lot of time, I made a documentary in Argentina, in the meantime, that film 112 important prices in Germany, then all of a sudden, people were interested in the script, you know, and then at the end, things fell into place. And we could make the film, it was still a low budget film, obviously, for feature but at least we raised enough money that we were able to do it in a small team.

Alex Ferrari 3:48
And I have a lot of international listeners, and I love your story. Because, I mean, you weren't raised in downtown Los Angeles. You weren't anywhere near Hollywood. So you are as far away from Hollywood as humanly possible. And, and yet, somehow, you have you know, you're you have a couple of couple Oscar winning actors in your latest film. And you've really kind of hustled your way out to get to where you have, what do you what how do you think that happened? Like from from the idea of like, I want to be an astronaut to, you know, system Crusher, and then system crash obviously won a lot of awards. It didn't it like sweep the German Oscars, as well, the Lola's and I mean, no one didn't when the Berlin went to Berlin as well. What was that? Like? What is that like for you? I mean, I've never been in that situation. So I'd love to hear it from your side of it. How that feel?

Nora Fingscheidt 4:40
Well, pretty surreal. But then, thankfully, it doesn't happen. Everything at the same time. You know, I mean, sometimes I look back the other day, you know, I was walking with my husband through Venice, and we had been here to do a short film 2003 With our son, who by that time would be was he was too. And we were like, Okay, if somebody would have told us that, eight years later you will be living with your son in LA, who by that time speaks fluently English, almost now better than German while directing a film, you know, with Sandra Bullock, Viola Davis, you know, Vincent denorfia, John, Brenda? I wouldn't think like, yeah, I want to take that to the bureau, whatever.

Alex Ferrari 5:31
But that's the thing that's so fascinating, because I've been, I've said that to myself so many times in my life, where like, if I would have like, Oh, if I would have had this meeting with this actor, or this producer, I would have, like, if you would have told me that five years ago, it'd be crazy, you know, are just being on the show, being able to do this show, I talked to my heroes that made movies when I was kid, and I'm like, you know, thank you for making the movies that made my childhood. If you would have told me, If you told the video store kid, the guy who's working at the video store, like one day, you're going to interview and talk for a couple hours with this, this director. It's insane. But that's but you have to start with a dream. You have to start with a dream. And that's where it kind of goes from there. Now, how did you so I have to, I have to find out? How did you get from system crasher obviously had a lot of awards a lot of attention. Did you just start getting noticed from Hollywood at that point, and then they started, you know, hey, why don't you come over here?

Nora Fingscheidt 6:28
So um, yeah, sort of. So I'm Veronica Faris, who is a German actress slash producer. And who co produces a lot of films in Hollywood, she saw some pressure at the Berlin Film Festival. And then she reached out and said, I really loved your film, and I am co producing the film over there, and which really somehow resonates with your thumb. And by the way, Sandra Bullock is playing the lead and branching is producing. Do you mind? Do you want to take a look at the script? And I was like, Oh, yes, sure. But it was more than I was curious to read a Hollywood script, right? And realizing that there would be any chance that I would actually have to do something, right. Oh, did it you know, it was more like, that would be cool to read. And then she was like, Can I forward them your film? And I'm like, of course, sure. You know, and at that point, I was still I thought, like, wow, if Sandra Bullock got to watch my movie, and if the producer from the departed watches my film, how amazing is that? Stop. You know, that was those two, my expectations were and that was, I consider that already a miracle. But when they saw the film, they they reached out he said, we definitely want to meet you. And that is when things for me. It's really

Alex Ferrari 7:53
Surreal. That must have been that must have been remarkable. Like, like you said, like it's insanity for, like, why would they want me like that? They see my movie is just enough, let alone. So when you start getting these, when you when you take that first meeting, because I love I love hearing these stories. When you take that first meeting with with Sandra and Graham, how did that go? Like, did you still like, would you just like, why am I here?

Nora Fingscheidt 8:25
Well, I mean, the Why am I here goes all the way through? No, it's not constantly there. But it hits you every time again. All of a sudden, you're sitting in Hans Zimmer studio, who's composing the movie. And if they're like, how did I get here? You know, who was so crazy to hire me, you know. But um, so first, I met Graham, in London. And there was a wonderful meeting. I mean, I was so nervous also, because I wasn't used to communicating in English. So so the lawyers of insecurity, not only like, why are we meeting actually, but how can I express my thoughts? But then we spoke about the movie two and a half hours, you know, we were exchanging ideas and thinking about cons. And I was asking questions, I basically, I showed up with papers like this here. And I had prepared questions that I get too nervous, I could have something to hold. So I interviewed him. And he was like Yeah, he was like, I love that go on. You know, I think he probably usually does it the other way around. Sure. And then the next thing that was going to LA and meeting Sandy and I mean, there was another you know, the moment you you step out of a car. And you see Sandra Bullock is like Oh, already in another surreal moment. And that was the moment where I got really nervous. Then I realized, but then she came and she gave me a hug and she said in German is so cool that you're here. You want to have a coffee Be kooky. And you know, she's so likable and approachable and grounded. That makes it really easy for you to forget that she sent her pull up.

Alex Ferrari 10:12
Now when you're on set, and you're directing Viola Davis Sandra Bullock, Vincent D'Onofrio, John Brunel up. How do you what is it like collaborating with that level of talent? As far as I mean, I mean, Hans Zimmer and all the other people on the on the behind the scenes as well, but but just as a director working with that caliber of actor, what does that experience like, especially for, for first time, you're not a first time director, but you were definitely a first time. big Hollywood director. There's the first time you were on a Hollywood set and things like that. So what was that experience? Like?

Nora Fingscheidt 10:49
Again, thankfully, it doesn't happen everything at the same time, you know, so when I went when I got the job, I didn't know who the cast would be. We found them all together was a process. You know, we started with Sandy was crazy enough. And then, you know, we were talking about Liz. And we thought about Viola, and you know, it was like a dream. We didn't know if she would take on that part or not. And when she did, it was like, wow. And now next thing is like jump on the phone with Viola. So it happened step by step. And then yes, they bring extremely, a lot of experience and talent, but at the same time, you still make a movie together. So it's a little bit like cooking. But with bigger pots and a bigger kitchen, you know? Oh, yes, I'm kind of amazed. And sometimes I'm just watching not even giving them a lot of directions. But then comes the moment where you go, like, oh, that scene isn't working, or that dialogue is necessary, or they run an idea by me, I, I have something and then all of a sudden, it goes back to Norman is always like almost like riding a bicycle, you know, it comes to something super, super simple. And you forget the big Hollywood machine, because it's like, what's the motivation of the character in that moment? Right? How do we translate it? And which words do we need? And which can we take away? What's the backstory of the character that makes him or her do that in that moment? And is it enough or not? And and then it gets really comforting in a way because that is what all combines us. And each actor is different. One wants to hear a lot of thoughts. And the other one's more like No, no, no, I'll just do it. And one is a lot of questions and the other not at all. And yeah, so it's with each individual actor will have different,

Alex Ferrari 12:49
A little a little bit different approach. Now I know I've had this experience many times when I'm on set the imposter syndrome. The moment where you think, Oh, my God, security is going to come and they're going to figure out that I'm a fraud, and I don't belong here. And at any moment, security is going that someone's going to go wait a minute, what is what is she doing here? Get her off the set. How often did that happen to you? And how did you deal with it? Because it is a thing that a lot of directors, you know, we go through?

Nora Fingscheidt 13:19
Absolutely. All the time. Basically. It's a mixture. It's always there, you know, there. I once read, there was long time ago, a few filmmaker rules by Verna Hertzog you know where it's like, and one of the rules was get used to the bare behind you. And I don't know what the heck he meant by that. I just know what I understood for it, because I can so well imagine that Big Bear behind me, who is there when you write a script? When you you know, talk to an actor for the first time, that bear that always says, like, somebody else could do that much better? That scene that you're writing, it's really not good. Oh, god, look at that dialogue, you know, there is an inner voice, and you have, it will never go away. And it might even grow where you have to, in a way, get used to it and embrace it, and say less, there will come the moment, you know, when you work with a new editor for the first time, and you haven't, you know, he shows you something and you go like, wow, I'm working with Joe Walker, we haven't worked before he just edited Dune, you know, and give some comments about his cut. But see how that goes. You know, of course that's like, frightening but then all of a sudden you start dialogue and you feel that people are I just felt so many amazing, you know, encounters with people on a level that I have to be really grateful.

Alex Ferrari 14:47
Yeah. I mean, it sounds like you got to play with a lot of toys. A lot of amazing people and yeah, I mean hands. I mean, what was hot what is it? How Is it working collaborating with Hans Zimmer, I have to ask you.

Nora Fingscheidt 15:04
Um, it's it's also similar, like with Sandy, I mean, you meet an icon. But but those guys, they make it so easy. So and maybe again, it's the culture connection, you know, I mean, I came in Hans a studio, and then he, you know, I mean, that was already in Corona time. So we did not hug. But again, he said in German, like, welcome, so cool that you're here. What an amazing film. I just saw the cat, you know, let me show I have an idea. And then all of a sudden? I said, Well, Hans, you know, I'm not sure like, you're, you're such a pro. And it's very difficult to talk about music, you know? Because I'm, you feel I'm not a professional magician, musician. How do I?

Alex Ferrari 15:56
Convey, convey convey? All right!

Nora Fingscheidt 15:58
Yeah, in a way, that doesn't sound stupid. And then he said, Nora, there is it's very easy to talk about music, it works, or it doesn't work. And I prefer you tell me it doesn't work. And we figure out together why I don't need you to analyze the music or using musical terms. You know, I just want your quick reaction I want to right away. And well, that's easy, then, you know,

Alex Ferrari 16:21
Right. So so it sounds like you almost had you know, everybody you were collaborating with was almost a little bit of a masterclass. You were learning, you know, what was like the what? So that was a very big lesson you learned from, from Hans, what was a big lesson you learned from working with the caliber of talent that you were working with? In front of the scenes, your actors? Was there a lesson that you'd like? I didn't? I didn't know that before I walked on the set?

Nora Fingscheidt 16:46
Oh, for sure. I mean, you know, what, what really amazed me with in working with Sandy and preparing that role, like nothing that we chose, as a team creatively is random, like everything, every detail, you know, every question of, why are the colors in that house like this? And how do we represent wealth of that one family, but more of the kind of the middle class intellectual household of the other ones? And where is Ruth come from? And how can we express all her anger within a character that is so silent for such a long time? You know, when do we let it bruised and everything so sometimes, you know, she would text me, I don't know, at midnight, when we both had to get up at four in the morning, and I was texting back. And it's so so cool, you're still available. So the passion, you know, that is in there, and the choices that she may like the How daring she is to physically transform into a character that we would not expect from Sandra bola, you know, it was a little thing that she put on her teeth, to make the change the teeth and make it slightly and yellow, and all those subtle changes that really make her look different, you know, like half naked, that that is what I learned, you know that there are basically no limits.

Alex Ferrari 18:15
Yeah, she definitely doesn't look like the glamorous Miss Congeniality in this in this film, and it's so beautiful to see her because she's such a, she's such a toward the force as an actress. I mean, she is truly intuitive for us, watching her and, and then of course, the rest of the cast is remarkable to now I know, no matter who you are in the house, where you are in your career as a director, there's always that one day onset, that you feel that the entire world is coming crashing down on you. Something's not working, you're losing the sun. You know, something breaks down some sort of craziness. What was that day for you? What happened? And how did you overcome it?

Nora Fingscheidt 18:54
Well, many that goes, I have to pick No. One for sure. I was when our DOP Guillermo hurt, hurt his knee really badly. Oh, wow. And had to leave set. And we had to make a decision about you know, how long is it going to be? What are we continuing and we transformed the day into a memory unit. And then a few days later, we had to work with another DOP who came in to support their time until gamma could come back. So that was something where you know, you really think like if I'm losing a super important creative partner here and yet it worked. Or the Day when We said well, it's the pandemic we stopped shooting now

Alex Ferrari 19:52
Did that happen? Did you have to stop shooting because of the pandemic?

Nora Fingscheidt 19:55
Oh, yes. Oh, yes. And after six weeks, so we had saw half a film off. And it was the decision we have stopped. Now it's a global pandemic, the world's closing down borders are getting shot. It's March 15 2020. And and we started, of course, editing what we had so far. But we were in the unknown. So we had no idea. Well, is this a four week hiatus and a two week hiatus? There were different scenarios, you know, we use the time creatively and also with what we edited. We made some changes on the script. So it was a blessing, but there was a silver lining about it, for sure. But it was really well, how are we going to do that now we have to shoot the second half of the film is summer, because we shot in Vancouver. So there are four seasons, you know,

Alex Ferrari 20:47
There is, yeah,

Nora Fingscheidt 20:49
If you know it, and you watch the film, you will see that sometimes the trees have no leaves at all. And then next moment is blooming summer, and it kind of pivots. And we really had to put so much minutia planning into everything to make sure you will not see a tree and opposed COVID When you see the film, it will still work as one. And that means that Sandy has to run around her winter code in summer, yeah, and have the degrees, you know. And that we film with the camera that there is one tree that is already getting a little bit red, and that is right behind her. So we can create at least a subconscious illusion of autumn. And yeah, like that. I could continue now for a long time.

Alex Ferrari 21:38
I mean, so I'll tell you, it did not. So don't worry, it didn't I didn't see it. And if I if I didn't see it, um, you know, you know how filmmakers I when we watch movies will start picking and poking at things. But I was so enthralled with the story that I didn't see any of that. And also the color grading and the lighting. It's just such a beautifully shot. Film, I didn't see that sometimes you do see that in movies, like something happens, like, oh, there's snow now there's no snow? What's you know it? I've gone through the exact same problem, I think,

Nora Fingscheidt 22:09
I'm glad. And also like, all of a sudden, you know, you can bring people together anymore. Like we couldn't, we couldn't have any big group of extra. So how do you direct a scene when every extra has to be six feet apart. So then you start putting extras to pause and start casting families, you know that you create an illusion that it doesn't feel to spread out. And then of course, if the actor is in a scene without masks, they could only come 15 minutes per day closer than six feet. So it's whole challenge that you have to encounter in order for everybody to be saved, like, Okay, we have 15 minutes. How do we stage the scenes, that there is a physical distance all the time, or we transfer scenes to the outside? So that you know, and it feels still natural?

Alex Ferrari 23:00
So yeah, because I know the seeds you're talking about? Yeah, especially the stuff in the fish market, at least they could have masks on in the fish market. So that was

Nora Fingscheidt 23:08
And that was pretty cool.

Alex Ferrari 23:09
Oh, of course, it was, why wouldn't it be pretty cool?

Nora Fingscheidt 23:15
When you see those masks, and you're like, put them up your nose guy, as you know, that's how we that's how I was wired. Are they wearing them out of here? Oh, yeah. Right, because it was pre COVID.

Alex Ferrari 23:26
So so I have to ask, you know, you, you've got your Big Shot. You're working with Sandy, and you're working on a big Hollywood movie. And then all of a sudden, the world has a once in a generation pandemic that stops you psychologically, as a director as a creative as an artist in the middle of that situation. How? I mean, you're not the only director that went through this, by the way, but how did you? How did you handle it? Like for those weeks, and I know you were working on other stuff, but like, at a moment, you're like, Oh, my God, my shot is like the whole thing is coming crashing down. When are we going to get back? I mean, all these thoughts had to have gone through your head. How did you handle those thoughts?

Nora Fingscheidt 24:06
On a day by day basis, I don't have a recipe for it. And the good thing is, I wasn't alone in it. You know, I mean, it was a whole it was us as a whole team. It was, you know, sending Graham, it was Netflix. It was Stefan, the editor in me at that time, like we were like, Okay, how can we make this work? It was a line producer always like planning different scenarios. So we were together in this in a way and that helped me a lot. You know, not just on me that we make it back up, but um, yeah,

Alex Ferrari 24:43
It sounded. It sounded like you had a lot of support. And everybody was in this together, so that's great. Yeah, cuz yeah, I couldn't imagine. I can't even imagine getting that shot and all of a sudden, yeah, how long were you out by the way? How long Well, how long was that hiatus before you got shooting again?

Nora Fingscheidt 24:59
It was five months.

Alex Ferrari 25:02
Five months?

Nora Fingscheidt 25:03
Yeah. So we stopped in mid March, we came back in September

Alex Ferrari 25:08
Oh my god. But I mean, like you said it was a blessing, you got to re edit stuff you got to rework the script. I mean, that's all you could do,

Nora Fingscheidt 25:15
Exactly

Alex Ferrari 25:15
And you do what you could

Nora Fingscheidt 25:17
That's what we have to do. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 25:20
Now, there were some scenes in the film that are extremely emotionally intense emotional scenes. Do you have any tips or suggestions for filmmakers who have to direct highly emotional scenes? How did you approach those scenes? Takes? You know, how did you talk to the actors, things like that?

Nora Fingscheidt 25:43
Well, in terms of talking to the actors, again, each actor is different. And some need their space. And others need a lot of attention. So I think first of all, you have to figure out through the process of getting to know them. What do they need from me, so I'm not blocking them, but help them to do their best of what they have inside. And sometimes it's hard to find the right balance of what's the one take that will be too much. You know, because certain emotional scenes you shouldn't do too many takes because you will wear somebody else. But then sometimes you need that one more take to bring it over the limit, you know, and there is no recipe for is just like being super, super alert, and, and conscious about the other person's well being and asking, making sure what does he or she need from me right now? I like to easily rehearse a scene a day before. I'm not in full intensity of emotions, but I like to go on the locations with the actors. That's what we did with the mediation scene, for example. Oh, yeah. As well, we did with the scene. And the big crash scene from Sandy and viola. So we even if it's just like a read through, you know, like exploring the space, exploring the lines just a little bit, you know, and, and it gives time for everybody to process what's going to happen. And there is enough time to ask all the questions, because sometimes on said, there isn't enough time and then extra still have a question, but the whole crew is already you know, running late. And it can put a lot of pressure unnecessary pressure in situations. So if you do have time to rehearse a day before, then great, because then you can also start shooting this scene freshly, you don't need to rehearse it on set anymore. You just do one staging for the crew, but you and your actors, you guys have already worked it out. worked it out.

Alex Ferrari 28:04
Yeah, cuz there yeah, there are some pretty intense scenes that Viola and Sandy seen was, I mean, you could just feel Sandy, you could feel you could feel the emotion coming from her is remarkable. So now that you've done a big Hollywood movie, what was the biggest lesson you took away from that big Hollywood movie? What's the one lesson you're like? I'm putting this in the I'm putting this in the toolbox and taking this with me for the rest of my travels.

Nora Fingscheidt 28:30
Oh, for sure. And so many things. And I think this is also an experience that we'll probably looking back. Every year, I will look back and differently now because it was so different from the world that I come from. And it's, it's, it's almost too much at the same time to process in order to say that's the one thing I definitely learned to let go and just concentrate on my world on my work. Because coming from the low budget area, everybody does 10 jobs at the same time, and you kind of you know, mix in everything, and you want to kind of control everything. So the benefit of working with so great people and such a big team and everybody knows exactly what they're doing is like, okay, I can actually relax and lay back and just focus on my work, which is directing that film, which is character work, character, road and character work, and of course, you know, camera and visuals and all that, but it really comes down to the human story that and I think I even you know, you can take that into other words of saying, I trust that people know what they're doing. And I don't need to micromanage you I better off focusing on the directing part.

Alex Ferrari 29:51
Now on your journey as a director, you know, when you were when you were doing those underground short films, and not telling your family about it, and all these guys things was, I have to believe that there were moments of failure along the way. Yeah. How did you in those early those early days when you were coming up? How did you overcome those, those initial failures, which are, when you're starting out so much harder to take those punches than when you are a little bit more seasoned? And you're used to those punches? How did you overcome those?

Nora Fingscheidt 30:23
Good question. I guess with time, and then, I mean, so many times, I, I was at a point where I'm like, maybe I should go do something else, you know, like, it's just too crazy. Or maybe it's not working out. Then there is something that keeps you going. And I don't know how to define that. Or, again, there is no conscious recipe. But with system pressure. I mean, there were many times where I thought like, this movie is never gonna get made. We're never getting it financed. You know, it's like, cool. But, but somehow the story really moved me and then I continued working on it. And sometimes I had to take a break, but I was really sure that I would miss that film in the world if it wasn't there. And I really thought like somebody has to do it, and nobody else does it. Well, I guess I have to do it then. Right. That kept me going and I think definitely it's healthy to have a certain balance you know, my kids helped me a lot to understand that yes, you know, when you do a movie you think this is the most important thing of the world but it's not it's just a movie you know, you still have to go and get your kids make make some dinner for them. And that is as important and that is also a healthy balance to overcome failures because then you're like, Well, you know, my kids love me no matter what, even if I make the worst movie on the on the planet. They will still like me and that is that is a pretty cool feeling.

Alex Ferrari 32:00
And kids do definitely give you perspective on life geek because if you get a little too high a high on the hog as they say you they will bring you down very quickly. Duck back down to earth. Now I'm going to ask you a few questions ask all of my guests What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Nora Fingscheidt 32:20
Have a long breath takes time

Alex Ferrari 32:24
breaks your mind brace yourself is what you're saying. Now what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Nora Fingscheidt 32:36
Letting go and relax

Alex Ferrari 32:40
Let just roll with the flow go with the flow

Nora Fingscheidt 32:42
Yeah, enjoy the ride

Alex Ferrari 32:44
Enjoy the ride because it's going whether you want to or not it's it's gonna go as much as we try to go the other way it's something keeps pushing us in the way that we need to go. And three of your favorite films of all time.

Nora Fingscheidt 32:59
Oh, wow. Oh, wow. Um, so there is a there's a Korean film been Jip called Three Iran by kinky dog. Okay, love, love, love that film. One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest classic it's a film I I end up watching yet because I just love unlikable characters that are carry writers. You know, they're definitely Ruth Slater and Benny from system Crusher have something in common with him. And then, this is England film by Shane Meadows. Is really loved. It's yeah, I probably have to add Wings of Desire also.

Alex Ferrari 33:47
Oh, so one citizen.

Nora Fingscheidt 33:52
Yeah, it moved me so much. Just the atmosphere. You know, I have still until say, I don't know what the plot is. But I just like those, those two angels wandering through that partly destroyed Berlin. You know that something? Yeah. And

Alex Ferrari 34:08
It was it's a stunning, stunning, stunning movie. Everyone should would definitely Well, I kind of haven't seen Wings of Desire in forever. I have to go watch it again. And when is when does the unforgiveable coming out?

Nora Fingscheidt 34:20
It's coming out on December 10. on Netflix and in certain theaters and November 24.

Alex Ferrari 34:29
Nora, it's been a pleasure having you on the show. And I wish you nothing but continued success in the business and in your career. And I thank you for making such a just a very heart wrenching but wonderful, wonderful film. So thank you.

Nora Fingscheidt 34:47
Thank you for having me. Hope to speak again.

LINKS

  • Watch The Unforgivable – Netflix

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IFH 529: Getting Your First Feature on HBOMax with Lissette Feliciano

Lissette Feliciano, Women is losers

Today on the show we have writer, director and producer Lissette Feliciano. She is a Tribeca Film Institute AT&T Untold Stories grant recipient, was named as one of Shoot Magazine’s new directors to watch, and has served as an ambassador for The Wraps Power Women Summit.

Her production company Look at the Moon Pictures develops original content that shines a hero’s lens on underrepresented groups, joining the ranks of creators filling the market gap in storytelling for a new young multicultural audience.

Under Lissette’s leadership, Look at the Moon was among the first production companies to mandate 50% BIPOC representation across leadership positions on and off-camera – a metric they are proud to consistently achieve. An avid supporter of young women’s education, she sits on several committees for an all-girls high school serving low-income students in her hometown of the Mission District of San Francisco.

Her latest film projects is Women is Losers.

In 1960s San Francisco, a once-promising catholic school girl, Celina Guerrera, sets out to rise above the oppression of poverty and invest in a future for herself that sets new precedents for the time.

The film was produced independently and picked up by HBOMax as a major release on its platform. A true cinderella story. We discuss how she financed the film, her struggles with production, getting her amazing cast and much more.

Get ready to be inspired. Enjoy my conversation with Lissette Feliciano.


Right-click here to download the MP3

 

Alex Ferrari 0:00
I'd like to welcome to the show Lissette Feliciano, how you doing?

Lissette Feliciano 0:16
Hi, I'm good. How are you?

Alex Ferrari 0:17
I'm doing very good. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I am. I am. I'm excited to get into because you have had a obviously you just made it overnight. I mean, you just started this, like, what yesterday, and you just automatically just got the first movie done. And it was like it happened like within two, three months, right? Something like that. Right?

Lissette Feliciano 0:35
Yeah. Crazy. It was super fun day was like, I'm gonna be a director. And it happened.

Alex Ferrari 0:40
It just happened, right? And then, and then the money just starts piling in. They did bring the truckloads of cash, and they just dump it. It's something like that's the way it works.

Lissette Feliciano 0:49
Yeah, totally. I don't know where to put all of it. It's a thing in it. Like, this

Alex Ferrari 0:54
It's like a scene of like a scene from Narcos like I've got too much cash, man, I can't

Lissette Feliciano 1:02
Moving into moving into the house from casino very soon.

Alex Ferrari 1:06
Very nice. Very well played. Well played. No, I wanted to have you in the show. Cuz you know, you've had a, you know, you had a journey to say the least on getting your first film made. So let's start from the beginning. How did you get started in this business? And why did you want to get into this crazy business?

Lissette Feliciano 1:24
Dude, I asked myself that all the time, thank you. Yeah, man, like all like crazy round around the globe, like circle to get to this point. Like, I you know, I grew up in the Mission District of San Francisco, if your audience is very familiar, but you know, it's basically the Latino area of San Francisco. Now, it's the tech area, my neighbor is, you know, good old Facebook, which has been fun. It's been cool to see it like change in a weird way. But yes, I went there. And I was, you know, I brought a lot as a kid, because it was just like something that I could do that would kind of keep me busy. And there was a lot going on at home, as some of your odd as your audience will know, because the movie is based on my family. So you know a lot about me base like how I grew up in and in and around that that situation. And I was just, I realized that like, I liked writing and people liked reading it. So, you know, I wrote myself into a better High School. And then I somehow wrote myself into NYU, had no idea what the hell NYU was. True story. We had a guidance counselor who got money together, pooled money together to take girls on college tours, because we couldn't, that was too cost prohibitive for us, we'd all of us were going to local to local schools. She's like, why aren't you guys even trying for hardware? And we're like, first of all, what the hell is Harvard? And second of all, where's Boston? Like, we just these things that like now seem crazy, but I had no idea. Sure. So I want to go into NYU, just shocked. Everybody shocked myself, I had no idea what I was getting myself into. And went there and very quickly learned that filmmaking was a really cool way to put writing, and acting and theater altogether. And that you could pack it in, pack it into a digital file and send it to loads of people who couldn't come to like your local theater. So anyway, so I went there. And then I decided, Okay, I'm gonna go out to Hollywood and be a dire ctor. Right? That's what I studied. And

Alex Ferrari 3:25
I mean, yeah, so yeah, you studied directing, you go to Hollywood, because that's where the directors get jobs. And that's where they make movies. So I'll just get there and get my first job. And I'll just knock on a couple doors and it should be fine.

Lissette Feliciano 3:38
So, so fine, I'm not fine. It was 2012. And I don't know if people really remember this, but like it, it was four years before me to four years before BLM and even those four years were so different, like the shift of being like I'm a female director, I'm also Latina and you know us born Latina, but nonetheless, like that was like not even a thought in anybody's mind that that could be something available to me and then me to happen and BLM happened. And it started becoming like, Oh no, but we need this so I am definitely a beneficiary of how the industry has shifted even in the last decade that I've that I've been in it so anyways, I came out here started a PA I think my first job was like picking up trash in like Selena Gomez is trailer I was like our handle on things when finding movie was insane. Working, you know, working 22 hours a day, no breaks, nothing minimum, like stand with it guys. And yeah, it just wasn't you know, I kept making writing and kept making proof of concepts and just doing everything I could to say I'm a writer, I'm a director, I'm going to do these things. And, you know, had a couple of projects Like not go or go. And I just kind of noticed that after a while, it was less about my experience. And more about it me being me that was coming into the room. So it wasn't like anybody and you probably knows, but people don't actually say that you can't do something they never like there's no no evil person in the room going, Yeah, that doesn't happen. It's just they don't say anything. It's just very quiet, right? It's like, and then they kind of laugh a little like smile a little like, Oh, you're so ambitious good for you.

Alex Ferrari 5:30
You've got spunk kid, your spark,

Lissette Feliciano 5:32
You got funk, your Sparky, you know, like, going, it's been a be great for you. But then there's no actual help or support, right. And so I'd gone through that process twice. And then by the third one, by the time when those losers came around, I was like, I can't go through that process. Again. I'm just going to do this for myself at this point. And by the time I'd producing commercial that made a little bit of money, and that production company was able to, you know, co financing and get here. So it really was a bootstrap mentality all the way.

Alex Ferrari 6:02
And you went into commercials as well.

Lissette Feliciano 6:05
I did. Yeah. Cuz it was crazy. Alex, like people would give me millions of dollars to produce a commercial. I'm not great at spreadsheets. I'm terrible at spreadsheets. But for some reason, the mentality that I could produce was just like a given. But then the second I wanted to direct it was like, Whoa, yeah. What do you mean? Do you know where to point the cameras? Again, not just me. I know where to point the camera more than I do where to put the spreadsheet. But you know, is this about taking my taking my disadvantages and making them into my own advantages?

Alex Ferrari 6:38
Yeah, no question. I mean, I literally felt the same exact. When I was coming up. I was doing commercials works as well, Miami. And I remember, like, my reps, were saying, Hey, if you, if you do a Spanish commercial, you're done. Like, I couldn't do a Latino commercial. Because if anyone finds out in the general market that you did Latino commercial dates, they just won't let you do general market commercials. Because you can't I'm like, but the lights are the same people. I mean, the camera lens hasn't changed. Why? Because you're speaking a different language. And that was the mentality back in the 90s. You know, when I was coming up, it was crazy. So I I understand, you know, it was it was a crazy time. But yeah, so you get into commercials, which I feel is a great, great proving ground for directors. I mean, really, Ridley and Tony were the ones that kind of broke the door open. And then I mean, the plethora of directors that came from the commercial world is great. So alright, so you so then you write the script for women is losers? How do you? How do you begin to get something like this made? Because it's not like, obviously, this is going to make a boatload of cash. So let's, let's throw as much money at this as we can, like, how did you? How did you approach this?

Lissette Feliciano 7:57
It was just that I'm glad it was a decision. I'm going to do this. I don't know which hat like at what scale I'm going to do it but in a year, this film will be done. And it really was just that decision. And then having getting that decision kind of pushed forward. Every there was just wasn't an option to not do it anymore. And I wasn't going to wait anymore. I wasn't going to wait to be given permission. I wasn't gonna wait for somebody to potential me it just wasn't gonna happen. So, you know, I started very small, and then we, you know, f9 out to talent, first and amazing casting director. And you know, she very quickly we found the Renza. And I think once Lorenzo came on board, it just started clicking for people are like, Oh, I see Celine, I see what you're trying to do here. I kind of go from there. We'd also had a short film prior to this like so I'd done a short film about it was like my fifth short film. And I've done a short film and you know, like, mostly times in short films, people nobody comes up and talks to you. You're kind of like the opening previews for something else. This time, though, people wanted to talk to me. And so they wanted to tell me that like, Oh, it's a that's me. That's my sister. That's like everybody. So I was like, Okay, this this just hit a nerve. And hit me think about that going forward. And I think a year later I decided to make it into a feature length because so many people had been like, I want to see that more of this. I was like, Alright, let me just follow the market here. And yeah, that's how it kind of it kind of it kind of came to life.

Alex Ferrari 9:26
Now the movie it's beautifully shot. I mean, it is a film that is a period piece so they're so you know, you could you couldn't make it you could only make it so much harder on yourself as a first time feature directors. Oh, let's do a period piece. Let's do it about this subject and that you know, so it's it's a lot of a lot of obstacles, but it looks great. How did you raise the financing for this and how did you because this was not like HBO wrote you a checking like, let's just go do your thing, girl. Like that wasn't the case.

Lissette Feliciano 10:01
No, no way at all. It was more about like finding something, the financing. It's always tough, right? I think for your first movie, there's a snippet, someone's gonna come and give you what however much money to do something like that just was hasn't been the case for like me or any of the directors I know it was always something about them scraping together whatever they had to make it work. And the people that I saw do that successfully were the ones that not only embraced their budgetary concerns, but used it as part of the story. Close out being Zhao being the most famous example of that. So the financing was just kind of a little bit of everything. It was what I had saved from work, it'd been a couple of different people that were you know, giving a small amount or a big amount, and really writing that into the script. So yes, I wanted to make a period piece as my first movie, which people were like, you're insane. I was like, I don't care. They kept telling me you're one room movie, it was a one room movie in a period piece there. They're hard either any movie is hard to make. And I just didn't want it just kept being like I kept being asked to play small. I was like, Look, I'm creative, I can find a way to work this to work this disadvantage into the story because the story is about a woman doing that. Right? It's very meta, like what she was going through in the scenes as well. I was going through behind the scenes and the cast to to, to their credit, like a lot of them felt the same way of like being Selena to everybody that came to the story from Brian Craig to Chrissy fit to SEMA Lou to Lorenza, they all had a version of the story for themselves about what it's like to make, you know, make gold out of lead, essentially.

Alex Ferrari 11:40
Alchemy, Alchemy, essentially, you're

Lissette Feliciano 11:43
Definitely some alchemy.

Alex Ferrari 11:46
Now, what inspired you to write this in the first place?

Lissette Feliciano 11:49
My mom, my mom, I had a conversation with her around the time that I was making the short film. Because I, you know, had gone through I paid my dues. I had done all the steps that people had told me to do do this, and then this will happen do this in this business will happen. But every time I got to that step, it felt like the goalposts kept moving. So I obviously internalized that and said, Well, that's because I'm just not that good. That's what's happening. Like, I'm not that talented. And I had to go and tell my mom, this that I failed, essentially, and was like, I'm sorry that we spent all this money. And all this time doing going after this dream. It's not working. And I'm sorry, and I'm ready to let it go. And you know, we'll figure it out. And she was like, No, that's not what's happening. This is what's happening to you. And for the first time in our life, she told me everything that happened to her in the 70s and showed me receipts, Alex, you saw my receipt, she showed me a letter from her boss saying Congratulations on the birth of your son, your two weeks vacation is over time to come back to work. Like she had a C section, you know, so like this thing that I had no idea about that were like real for women of the time period. And that she had lived through this. So I just saw some similarities in between what was happening in her life happening to me. And I wanted to create a story that celebrated that like, you know, you're all looking for your superhero movie, but it turns out my superhero was right under my feet the whole time.

Alex Ferrari 13:18
Oh, that's a great, that's that's so amazing. Because we all need a little we all need champions. Because the struggle is real. There's no question about it. And as filmmakers, especially after a certain amount of time, you just like, is it? Is it me? Am I not? Am I not good enough? Am I Am I not? Like what? Because you Right? Like so many of us go through this process of like, I did this, I did this, but the goalpost just keeps moving, or the doors don't open. And I've always found and after interviewing as many people as I've interviewed on the show, I found that it's only when you start touching something that is true to you. It's a story that you can't, that no one else can tell. But you that's when doors start opening up because that's the secret sauce. That is your secret sauce. Like I can't tell your story. You can't tell my story. It is something so specific to us. So I think if filmmakers start to find that thing inside them, and not be afraid, because a lot of people would be terrified to put your your film out there. And that script out there is pretty personal, to say the least.

Lissette Feliciano 14:24
Yeah, which part? You're so right. It was just about like coming in to that piece of saying Who am I what do I want to be saying? And being really vulnerable? Like, it was really I don't think I really hit me until like South by happened. Like the night before South I was like, Oh my God, what did I do? Everybody's gonna see this. There's no way to get this back. And just being really, you know, like, I'm putting my grandma out there. My grandfather, my mother, my brother myself in a very like vulnerable way. And you're right for some reason That's the one that always hits because everybody kind of feels that way. It seems like, you know, just everyone feel has felt vulnerable and has felt like, I know what it's like to struggle to put food on the table. And that's like, like, it's not gender or culture specific. That's everybody.

Alex Ferrari 15:16
I don't think there, there's only a handful of human beings on the planet who have had the luxury of never having to worry about that. And struggling, you know, I mean, I came from middle to lower middle class, you know, growing up in New York, and Miami and all these kinds of places. So I feel I completely feel it. And I was, I'm a bit older than you. So I was around in the 70s. I was a kid in the 70s. But I still remember it. And I remember what my mom would go through. And I was raised by basically a single mom, so I, man, I get it. Now, the other thing, you got an amazing cast, how did you get gather this amazing cast with you? You know, being a first time director, which is always that thing to like, oh, first, I got to stop for a second for the first time director, bullshit. Just drive it drove me I'm sorry, but it just drove me nuts. You know, when I was first? How much of this? Oh, well, you've done it. You've done a few shorts. Oh, you've done million dollar commercials. But yet, I don't know if you really can hold this for 90 minutes. How often did you hit that first time director wall?

Lissette Feliciano 16:27
Every single step of the way. It got comical. And it was just, and then even now, like I'm doing TV now. And it's like, well, you've never directed an episode of TV. I'm like, Oh, my God, you guys, I can't go through this again. Like, I it's like, it's going to be fine. I promise. It's gonna be okay. I can't explain it. There's like this real fear and more fear for certain people. I think just because, again, the lack of perceived potential that comes with how we as a human race have associated authority, right, the way the symbol for authority does not look like me. And on a set, you are the symbol of authority. So there's a lot of things that we're dealing with, subconsciously that I don't think a lot of people are realizing.

Alex Ferrari 17:26
So yeah, no, you're absolutely right. There is a subconscious, you know, a subconscious thing going on. And, you know, it's, it's something that we all people have to deal with, unfortunately. But I think the doors have been opening a lot more in the last five years, and they have been in the last 50.

Lissette Feliciano 17:46
Yeah, thankfully, that's been a big part of it. The things things have been changing. And I'm definitely a beneficiary of that.

Alex Ferrari 17:54
Yeah, absolutely. Now, again, so let's go back to that amazing cast. Did you did you? How did you gather them? And how did you? You know, did you have to deal with the first time director stuff with the cast? And did you have the because a lot of a lot of filmmakers tell me and I know this to be a fact is, when you're going to casting, they always want to see verifiable funds. And, you know, is this really gonna happen? And who are you? You've never done anything like when you're talking to agents and managers, and even casting people? How did you go through all that? Because you have a pretty amazing cast?

Lissette Feliciano 18:31
Yeah. Well, it's the type of casting that we did, right? Like, if somebody was going to have those concerns off the bat, then they probably weren't going to be the team players that we did. So Lorenzo ESA is a perfect example of that, because she not only came to the story, cre financing basically, until Australia, she said I want to be an EAD. So that's me signified two things a signified to me. She was brave, and is signified to me that she was a team player, all the things that were necessary on the camera and behind the camera. Same thing with Brian Craig, he came on, he had three days before we were shooting, his first scene was the opening scene, Alex, and he was just off book and I called him I said, I need you to play a guy that is going to help young guys make the jump from do I want to what kind of guy do I want to be like you have to they you have to be able to let give them space to ask themselves that question. non judgmental Lee, are you open to that? He was like, um, it? That was right. Symbaloo, same thing. It was. Here's a conversation about representation that hasn't happened. And the similarities between the struggle that the Chinese American community went through the Latino American community is going through now. Like, can you bridge that gap? Down? Right, so that was a type of casting that I did, because they're all great actors. You don't? At that point, like there's no there's not one person that's come into the room that doesn't know how to act. And for me, it's about The core connection and to this day, right, like even new projects that we're working on, what's the core connection because that's what's gonna carry it through. And I think having those conversations was what was able to solidify this cast. And they're just great. They're just great people all across the board.

Alex Ferrari 20:17
As directors, there's always that moment where you're onset. And something happens where your entire world comes crashing down around you. And it's either you're losing the sun the first day D is not, you're not making your day an actor's not doing something, that the location is lost, the camera gets thrown into a lake, whatever that moment is, what was that moment for you on this project? And how did you overcome it? Every day? I was terrified every single day.

Lissette Feliciano 20:50
We were shooting on location in San Francisco. That was very important to me, because I was tired of seeing San Francisco depicted as Golden Gate and cable cars. Because I grew up poor in San Francisco, if you grew up poor in San Francisco, you're going to a bodega. And maybe you go to the Golden Gate Bridge on a field trip that your pastor put together. Like, that's just the reality of that world. So I was like, I'm gonna shoot in San Francisco. And it's Home Team Advantage, obviously, sure, like high school is my high school. So I had Home Team Advantage. The downside of that is that it's very expensive to shoot in San Francisco. And I do have to give it to SFO commission, because they helped a ton. But it's just not fully a city that set up yet for infrastructure, film changing, definitely changing. So we had to move locations every day. So like, every day, we move to three times a day, so I got maybe hours of camera time, camera time, six to eight hours at best. So there's some waters in there. Alex said like I didn't plan for. Okay, what do I have to say? And I have 30 minutes to say it. So that was I think that was definitely the moments where we're just like, like that opening scene. Yeah, that opening scene was shot in six hours. And then we had to go shoot the hospital scenes, the dance scene, we shot the dancing and everything around it all the conversations one night, like we're literally in the school overnight. And then as you get out of there by 7am, because we were leaving and the girls were coming with her class. You know, so that there are definitely moments where you're just like, okay, great, how do I zone this? How do I and I'm telling you, like the cast were so good, because they were such team players in terms of production as well, right? There are things where I was like, you just need to stand here and say this line, and it will work I promise. And they really gave me that trust. So it did help and that is I had a lot of experience working outside of outside of America in places with much less infrastructure like Brazil and Ghana and so being able to think faster and feet and my DP for how to mentality which you guys he's the best biggest thing coming into into the cinematography space. He's worked a lot in India so like we were both very fast on our feet and that I think helped us a ton on the show.

Alex Ferrari 23:03
Do you do pretty much I think the one word that that encompasses what we do as directors is compromise it's just compromise constantly calm you compromise every moment of every day. You know, unless you're James Cameron you know or unless you know your Ridley Scott or Steven Spielberg and even they have to compromise to a certain extent but you know if we only got one we only got a half page today that's fine like that's not the world we come from at all but it's always compromised like every every like you just said like there's some wonders in there didn't plan on it just needed to get a shot you know, and and did you have like a ton of storyboards and shot list and then the first lady's like, yeah, that's not gonna work. I do that all the time. I'd love scaring the hell out of my first lady's

Lissette Feliciano 23:52
Oh my god. Yeah, I send them like to two pages worth of stuff.

Alex Ferrari 23:56
Oh shot listen to like, that's before lunch, Alex. I'm like, Nah, I'm just messing with you, man. But do you But do you agree? I mean, it's just constant compromise.

Lissette Feliciano 24:06
Yeah. I would say for me wasn't compromised because I didn't get set it takes I didn't lose anything that I tried. But you have to adjust so adjustments definitely creative adjustments to get the sample Sometimes it worked out better man like those one or sometimes they're just and they always do. And that's where I think the crew was really came in handy because we have the same crew is like Sorry to bother you. Fruitvale Station like it's the same crew in San Francisco. And this is not their first rodeo moving around every five seconds. So they were very helpful in terms of being like okay, well, we should try it this way. Not not creatively, but being like alright, this is a we can do this like Dolores Park florists Park was hell. It was held to shoot and Dolores Park because it's like surrounded by these million dollar homes at the time. The 70s were like, places nobody wanted to live. So all of a sudden we had it was crazy as we had like, we're trying to shoot a film and all about old Mission Dolores. Tech mission.

Alex Ferrari 25:04
Right, exactly. And now it's Yeah, I was just, I was just we just my family and I went to San Francisco the other day, earlier this year, and I was just walking around over by the Presidio, and we were just checking out real estate prices just for fun. And we're like, how much is that house? How much is are you what? Like, it's insane. But yeah, but like, it's like, you could have bought beachfront property. You could like Santa Monica. In the 70s. It was nothing. It costs nothing.

Lissette Feliciano 25:33
Yeah, it costs nothing. It got well, you couldn't you couldn't, right, like the point of the film is that certain people could certainly couldn't. And as much as the film was about women's rights, and as much as the film was about intersectionality of races, it's also a film about financial literacy and wealth. Because so many of the times we're talking about these things, but we're not talking about how flawed the bootstrap mentality really is. Because not everybody has the same has the same access to anything like you banks were told do not give loans or credit to XYZ people, they were told that, and even to this day, like I'm a female entrepreneur, my interest rates are always higher. Like when I bought my house, I had my fiancee stand in front of the appraiser, because he's British, and he was white. Like, these are just real things that still affect us, and then generationally still affect us. So even me as a filmmaker, my ability to make this film happened because I had a little bit of generational wealth because of what my mother went through that so many times people don't have that and they can't enter this market. Because they don't have that support. Like to be in Hollywood, you have to be kind of wealthy.

Alex Ferrari 26:48
Oh, you do live in LA to live in LA.

Lissette Feliciano 26:52
I live in LA and also to be able to work for no money for 10 years. Like that's not something that is available to a ton of people. It's like not available. Um, you know, and that's why I think the story was so important for me to tell because like, Yeah, I'm here, but I'm here because of the sacrifices that my mother had to make. And that's, you know, I don't know, I just I always think about how many filmmakers and how many creators and how many stories are we not getting, because someone just can't afford to do that. And that really bothers me, especially when there's nothing but well in the industry. And it doesn't take much to give someone a little bit of a hand up, but they do a bunch of stuff with very little, you know, I've been the beneficiary of a ton of pitches and organizations and, and they're all great in a long way. But it also feels a little hunger Ganey. Right, like, standing in front of the biggest, the biggest like, like corporations in America, asking for this much to tell one story that should be one of millions. And you're standing there. And it's, it's a lottery, and it just feels very

Alex Ferrari 28:05
Squid gamey.

Lissette Feliciano 28:07
It's very squeaky. It feels very gamey. And it's, it doesn't need to be that way. Right? Yeah, anyways, go on and on about that.

Alex Ferrari 28:18
But it's you're absolutely right. I think I've never actually I've never actually looked at it like that. As far as the Hunger Games, squid gave me kind of vibe. But you're absolutely right. Because when you're going up, you know, you're talking to these big corporations, you talk about the big grant people or big film festivals. I mean, it looks as if Sundance isn't, you know, The Hunger Games? I don't know, what is it? I mean, seriously, you got what 20,000 submissions, and you know, 110 get picked between shorts and features and South bys. Not too far behind that. So to get there is is pretty remarkable. And the odds are just so against what you're doing, but you got to kind of love what you're doing. It's like I call it the beautiful infection, which is filmmaking. When you get infected, you're done. You can't get rid of it as much as you might want. You know, was there ever. I mean, you did talk a little bit about a moment where you're like, maybe I'm just not good enough. Maybe I just can't go on anymore. I've had that conversation multiple times. I've tried to quit. I've tried to leave. But there's always that voice in the head that says like, well, what are you going to do? Get a real job? So did you so those moments, I mean, did you it? Was it just that time? Or did you have other moments that you were just like I don't think I don't think I'm gonna keep doing this? This is just too hard. I mean, honestly, last week that's what is

Lissette Feliciano 29:40
Like, are we gonna keep doing like I have this conversation with you again.

Alex Ferrari 29:47
And that's a you know,

Lissette Feliciano 29:49
He just nice to tune me out.

Alex Ferrari 29:50
You know, and the funny thing is that in in so many people's eyes out there as far as filmmakers are concerned and screenwriters for that as well, you know, you've succeeded you've arrived because you You've had you've have a very well respected film, and got up on HBO Max, like you're living the dream. But there is a reality behind that, that filmmakers need to understand them. Like, that's not the end of the story. That's now the beginning and you still got to knock on doors, you still got to hustle. You still got to, you know, you got to get and that's when you just said that, like, yeah, I just had that conversation with myself last week. It's true. And I've seen I've seen Oscar winners have that conversation with themselves, because it never gets. It doesn't get any easier than the game the rules might change. But it doesn't seem to get any easier. Even for the biggest. I mean, look, Scorsese was having problems getting financed. If it was, do you think Irishman would get mad if it wasn't for Netflix? Like? No. You know, so it's always like, Yeah, but what he did, but you know, I do agree with that.

Lissette Feliciano 30:53
With it always been hard no matter what. Yeah, it's levels, right. I think it seems like it's levels, like what's the next level and there's always a new, a new challenge at this level. And it's given me a lot of empathy for people who have been in the industry for a long time, because it's, nobody is a bad person. Nobody is, you know, again, back to like, there's no real bill, like, it doesn't seem like there's a villain in the room or anything like that. It's just everyone's doing the best they can with really, really tough situations. And I want to be the type of team player that comes into a room and says, Okay, I see where, how you've gotten to X, Y, and Z, like, can I help get to z plus, you know, like, playing within that industry is really important to me, like I don't want to, I don't know, not not demonize anybody. And I do think everyone's doing the best they can with really, really tough, tough, tough odds. For sure.

Alex Ferrari 31:46
Yeah, no question. Now, I have to ask you, how did your your beautiful film find its way to HBO Max, because that's like, that's one of those, those dreams, those golden tickets is, you know, it's up there, you know, Netflix and, you know, it's how did you get that,

Lissette Feliciano 32:02
Umm, we had a fantastic sales agent, we had a lot of, honestly, I will say that that the HBO max of it all was a group when and when I say group, I mean, definitely the people who worked on the film, but a group when in terms of the festivals, festivals got behind this movie so hard, like the lack of support that I felt making the movie just gone. As soon as the movie was out there, it was like, the festivals have been the champions from day like, they just have completely blown out of the water in terms of how much they've rallied behind me behind the cast behind the story. So it's, it's definitely their win as much as it is mine, because they really, like started handing the gong like, Hey, guys, we gotta pay attention to this, you gotta pay attention to this. And that was that really restored my faith in the industry. In a lot of ways starting obviously with Jana out of South by and then all the way to leaf to Mill Valley, even now, recently, the Mill Valley is an awards festival, it's not something that, you know, smaller films get into, but they open their doors to us. And we're like, no, no, this is we hear we hear what happened, like, Here you go. And so that was really, really great. And we had a fantastic sales agent who came on and was like, this is going to need the support that you didn't have going into this. So we're going to support it now. And they, you know, they knocked on the door and they held their ground. I think a lot of the times, it seems like what I'm learning is and what I had felt prior to this is it, because it's so different from the mold and like I you know, me of being who I am is just a little bit different. The team that you get around you has to understand that they have to understand that if you're getting the no it's not because of the work, it's because of those subconscious things that we're all dealing with. So having a team that's going to stand their ground is the difference between getting HBO Max and not getting HBO Max, I think. And then also, I didn't have to really give it to HBO Max, because there's, they're bold, they're smart. You know, they were very involved from the beginning of like, okay, this is how we're going to position this, this is how this you know, and to have like this huge corporation, like, come to you and say, we like this, this is part of, you know, where our platform is going and what we what we the types of stories that we want to champion and be there for, like that was so humbling. And they have an amazing organization going on over there. There's it's just a very well oiled machine and they really put their money where their mouth is, is what it is like what was my experience? We're really happy to be working with them and we'll do it again in a heartbeat. That's awesome.

Alex Ferrari 34:34
And yeah, I'm gonna ask you a few questions asked all my guests. What advice would you what advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Lissette Feliciano 34:44
Stand on the shoulders of your giants

Alex Ferrari 34:46
Oh, great. Great. I like that. Can you can you elaborate

Lissette Feliciano 34:54
Depending on who you are and what your background is. There are people who have it already. Facility Do we all based on your background? Follow them. So I love Steven Spielberg, I think he's one of the you know, he's the aggressor. Like he's if my God, you know, like he's an idol of mine, but my trajectory is different than his and it's just going to be because of the world that we live in. So look for people who have done what you're doing in the lane that you're doing. And so I had the benefit of watching closely work, you know, of watching people go from their small indie movie to their bigger mid level movie to their Marvel movie, like I've had that benefit of seeing that trajectory. So when I say stand on your giants stand on someone whose story sort of mimics yours, because otherwise, you're just always going to feel like you're, you're good enough because, well, they did it. How come I can't? Well, they're different. They're different, because they have a different path. And they have a different path based on economics or sociology,

Alex Ferrari 36:00
And also time period. I mean, what worked for Steven Spielberg, in the late 60s, early 70s will not work for somebody today because those opportunities aren't open, those doors aren't open. There's much more competition. Same thing for like Robert Rodriguez in the $7,000 mariachi like that you show up with a $7,000. mariachi today. I'm not sure anyone really notices. It's it's it's harder. It's much, much harder. In today's world, so you have to kind of now the ways in it could be like, Oh, you've got a podcast where you've got on your big on YouTube, or you come into commercials you can there's other ways to get in. But its current, that field is moving every day. And it's constantly shifting and Right Place Right Time. Right product, though we say? Yes. Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Lissette Feliciano 36:57
It's a good question. To negotiate, negotiate, I learned that there's always more money. There always is. Will you grow up or are you just happy to get anything done? Right? You absolutely can you get into a room and even if there is an abundant amount of money to be made, because you don't have the tools to know that you negotiate against yourself, right? There's my husband, the the tools to negotiate. And being able to walk away being able to know your worth asking for a little bit more or asking for something that makes it worthwhile. For you also, obviously, don't take advantage. But yeah, negotiating was something I really struggled with, I started getting good at it, I would go grocery store, I'd ask for a 10% discount, just for fun. And nine out of 10 times I get it, that's the crazy part nine out of 10 times I get it. It's weird. So try this, go to any store, retail store, whatever gets the checkouts and ask for a 10% discount. And then they say no, ask again. And then say say no, ask again. Most of the time, you're gonna get it. It's crazy. So I had to learn that I had to learn how to not take food out of my own mouth, by trying to be nice, or trying to be, you know, an inconvenience for someone because it's weird. Like, people can smell that crap on you. They can start like sniff it out

Alex Ferrari 38:36
It's the programming that we were raised with. And it's, it's, it's the same thing I've always tell people, like, you know, have you ever met someone who is very well off, but they're absolute morons? And you're like, how in God's green earth are they serve? Like, how are they successful, and they're just that you could just do it, but they were raised in an environment where a lot of these things, these kind of ideas and things that you know, let's say wealthy people are raised with that they know what a trust is, they know how to build generational wealth, they know how to do because it's just ingrained in their way the same way. You know, maybe you and I you know, and I parents were like, we know how to stretch $1 We know how to there's there's there's lack of this and you've got to you got to there's there's those there's just a completely different mentality and I've struggled with it all my life dealing with that kind of programming, you know, like oh,

Lissette Feliciano 39:28
No, it's I'm just going to agree with you absolutely huge programming right. And on my end, I had two programs I had a female program we had a Latino programming where it's like as a kid that girl grows up Latino, you walk into a house you don't even ask her a glass of water because that's a sign of respect. Now you get into a negotiation table you don't ask for a glass of water they think you're not worth anything they think that you don't think you're valuable enough. Do the Ask the glass of water so it's on programming sort of that and then as women too it's like you know stay small stay a stay malleable, you know, don't be seen as challenging job be seen as difficult to be seen as whatever, right? So there's always that room of being the caretaker that you should adopt and stay out of isn't really I'm not great at it yet, but learning to negotiate.

Alex Ferrari 40:12
Great answer. Yes. It's, it's, it's, it's something and I'm really hoping that everyone listening out there picks up a lot of the stuff that we've been talking about in this conversation because it's, it's stuff that they do not teach you anywhere at any school. And it's stuff that is so valuable. And yeah, sure, it's nice to know what the lenses are. And sure, it's nice to know what the new cameras are. And it's nice to work with not to work with actors, and that's all great. But these little things are what help you build a career and, and break through a lot of the barriers that you're going to run into and there's enough barriers out there without you throwing more in front of yourself.

Lissette Feliciano 40:54
Seriously. Lenses that's a given so many times I listened to you know, filmmakers and stuff like that. And it's like, it's great. Yeah, I know, like Arri Alexa, fantastic camera. Performance, you know, read the David Mamet book, totally get it. But like, politics, tell me about the politics, because that's what it's gonna take.

Alex Ferrari 41:13
Right. Exactly. Exactly. And last question three of your favorite films of all time.

Lissette Feliciano 41:19
Life is beautiful, for sure. would be my other one. I have so many hours. Like I'm trying to think like different types. I really like me, Joe, black people don't like that movie. I love it. It's great. It's a great movie.

Alex Ferrari 41:34
I love I do enjoy. I just watched it. Believe it or not, during the pandemic, I watched it with my wife. And I understand it's slow. It's a slow burn. It's a slow burn, but it's beautiful. And, and Brad Pitt was phenomenal in it. just phenomenal.

Lissette Feliciano 41:53
The acting is great. The acting is fantastic. And also like it's not a biopic. How do you play death? Like, it's not like he could go on Ask death? You know what I mean? Like you really had to make choices. And like, Anthony Hopkins, how do you speak to death? I don't know. Has anybody ever done that before? Probably not. So like, when I say they I think is good. It's like, yeah, because they had to really just act. It's not like they have source material for that stuff. That's really interesting. I don't think people give them enough credit for what they did with that. So yeah, it definitely went on my top three. I have a long list, but it's definitely my top three.

Alex Ferrari 42:28
And and then where can people see you wonderful film.

Lissette Feliciano 42:33
HBO Max baby. For a while it was sitting right next to Dune, which was the craziest thing ever for me. I was like, That's nuts. That's and they told me they were gonna do that. And I was like, you guys, I'm telling you, like, it's real. Max really got behind. And they were amazing. They were like, no, no, don't worry, they'll be looking to know what's here. And you know, and,

Alex Ferrari 42:55
And both movies have about the same budget. So it's only

Lissette Feliciano 42:58
Oh, yeah, same budget, same budget, total same budget. Absolutely. Both world building. This is not, but there you go like that. That left to content, regardless of where it came from is amazing. And I really got to give it up to them as partners. But yeah, so you watch an HBO Max roster doing a couple of screenings out in LA, you can go to at official owners losers on Instagram. That's where we post most of like, if you want to come to the cast, you want to come talk to us in person, we're all very open to talking, especially the Renza and Chrissy and Brian, everybody will have just been so overwhelmed and so grateful for the love and support that we've gotten from everybody like truly, truly, truly, truly, truly, like, I could not say gratitude and not because we've made this with no expectations. We made it in our backyard and see people show up for it has just been like, I think it renewed a lot of our faith in the industry. Like everyone's really like, Oh, wow. Okay, that was kind of like that pushed off kind of at her wit's end, when we made the movie were like this is Wait, we've just gone through so much individually as people and then put that into this film, and then to see it. On the other hand, it's been just wonderful.

Alex Ferrari 44:24
It has been a pleasure talking to you. I wish you nothing but continued success. Thank you for making this film. Thank you for putting this out there. And again, I wish you nothing but continued success in your career. So when you do your next big Marvel movie, please come back.

Lissette Feliciano 44:40
Yeah, thank you I will, thank you so much, and I apologize again for all of the family chaos but such as life.

 

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